# Which Famous/Significant Works Have "The Americans" as the Villian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 29, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757 "2004-02-29T16:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jdbeatty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@jdbeatty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jdbeatty)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/21 "2004-03-02T12:45:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > _Das Boot_ was told from the German perspective, though I am not sure how much the enemy was seen as “The Americans” as opposed to “The Allies.” Since the narrative takes place in the fall of 1941, the Americans weren’t even in the war yet. ---
**Author:** ![jdbeatty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@jdbeatty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jdbeatty)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/22 "2004-03-02T12:47:12Z")
> [@Rex Fenestrarum](#): > > You mean the _Norfolk_? Norfolk in the book, Essex was the real ship. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/23 "2004-03-02T13:21:44Z")
Billy Bob Thornton as the US Pres in Love Actually is the film’s only bad guy ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/24 "2004-03-02T13:25:06Z")
_Gorkiy Park_ cast Americans as bad guys against a Soviet Russian cop as the hero… ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/25 "2004-03-02T13:45:32Z")
Star Wars You have all the English actors aboard the death star, doing their best to make the universe a safe and stable place. Then you have this terrorist group of American actors trying to destablise the universe and murder Imperial Officers in large numbers. If the Empire had called it the Star against Terrorism instead of the Death Star, then the film would have been viewed totally differently. ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/26 "2004-03-02T13:51:05Z")
Salvador Missing ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/27 "2004-03-02T13:54:41Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > _Das Boot_ was told from the German perspective, though I am not sure how much the enemy was seen as “The Americans” as opposed to “The Allies.” There are of course many stories in Germany dealing with WWII from a German perspective, but none that I can think of portrays the Americans as villains. Even direct confrontation is rarely shown. I think _Das Boot_ makes it entirely clear that the British forces depicted did nothing wrong at all. However the question of the morality of the German Crew’s actions and their orders is a constant theme. ---
**Author:** ![rngadam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/97f17d/32.png) [@rngadam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rngadam)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/28 "2004-03-07T07:05:01Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > _Tora, Tora, Tora_ is fairly even-handed in its treatment of the Japanese and Americans, so the Americans are looked at as the enemy in the Japanese scenes. Yeah, but admirable, “just and honest” enemy… Very flattering comments by Admiral Yamamoto and not a single attempt at demonizing them as is so often the case in the reverse. > [@](#): > > Get the picture? Since the 1960’s it has been fashionable for Hollywood to make films depicting America as the villain, which explains their political bent. They will make a dig at their own country at the drop of a hat, inventing all sorts of evils, directly or indirectly. I’m sorry, but I’ve seen quite a number of these movies and I don’t see “The Americans” as being portrayed as evil… And for those with an historical basis, how are they “invented” exactly?? ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/29 "2004-03-07T11:53:51Z")
> [@Wumpus](#): > > the Americans are the bad guys in The Quiet American by Graham Greene. See also _The Third Man_ and I think Graham Greene has a few other Americans cast as “bad guys”, often the CIA. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/30 "2004-03-07T12:40:37Z")
jdbeatty writes: \> Platoon \> Apocalypse Now \> Hiroshima (TV miniseries) \> Little Big Man \> The China Syndrome \> Rules of Engagement \> The Rock \> Fall of Saigon (Vietnamese ca 1990) \> JFK \> \> Get the picture? Since the 1960’s it has been fashionable for Hollywood to \> make films depicting America as the villain, which explains their political bent. \> They will make a dig at their own country at the drop of a hat, inventing all \> sorts of evils, directly or indirectly. But note that in each case (I believe), the hero or heroes of these films are also Americans. This is in fact one of the standard templates for American movies, and it’s been standard since long before the 1960’s. There is a group (a corporation, a government agency, a corrupt politician and his cronies, etc.) who have caused some evil, and a lone hero has to save the U.S. This group is _never_ shown as truly representing all Americans. It’s always implied that the “real Americans” are shocked when they discover the evil done by the group of bad people. And, furthermore, the evil group is at least as often shown as being liberals as being conservatives and the values of the lone hero are shown as conservative as much as being liberal. (Although in pretty much every case, the liberalism and/or conservatism of the bad guys is pretty much a hopeless parody. Nobody apparently wants to believe that the philosophy of one’s enemies could be honest if misguided. They would much rather believe that their enemies are simply evil people who don’t even believe in their stated philosophies.) These movies fit an American template of the lone American hero against a group that’s corrupting America. The lone hero, whether he eventually triumphs or not, is always shown as representing “real America” against the corrupting group. I can’t think of any American film in which it’s claimed that the U.S. is simply hopelessly evil. It’s always implied that “real Americans” don’t agree with the bad guys who are temporarily in control. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/31 "2004-03-07T13:49:42Z")
I think 3 days of the Condor counts. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/32 "2004-03-07T18:42:40Z")
Poul Anderson protrayed in his novel _The Corridors of Time_ and his novella “Sam Hall” rather nasty dictatorships in future USA’s. _The Corridors of Time_, unfortunately, seems to be almost unknown to SF fans, but “Sam Hall” is rather well-known, at least I’ve seen it in several anthologies. I also want to say that several other well-known sci-fi works portray villainous Americas, but the only ones that spring immediately to my mind are Alfred Bester’s “Disappearing Act” and possibly Phillip K. Dick’s “Faith of our Fathers.” Tom Sherred’s portrayal of our leaders & society in “E for Effort” is another possibility. The novels, _Sarkhan_ and _The Ugly American_, both by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick, offer an extremely unflattering view of the U.S. government’s efforts to win friends and influence people in Asia, but the authors seem to blame incompetence and stupidity as much as villainy. I recall a Russian novel that appeared in the late '70’s or early '80’s and became a bestseller in this country. It offered the CIA and the American government as the bad guys and KGB agents as the heroes. I bought it, but cannot recall the title or author, as I found the book a crashing bore and sold it. jdbeatty: It would not be impossible for Americans to be the villains of _Das Boot_. The German and U.S. navies were shooting at each other’s ships during the summer and fall of 1941. In fact, on Oct. 31, 1941, the USS Reuben James became the first American ship to be sunk in WW2 when the Germans torpedoed it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/33 "2004-03-07T18:52:04Z")
Poul Anderson protrayed in his novel _The Corridors of Time_ and his novella “Sam Hall” rather nasty dictatorships in future USA’s. _The Corridors of Time_, unfortunately, seems to be almost unknown to SF fans, but “Sam Hall” is rather well-known, at least I’ve seen it in several anthologies. I also want to say that several other well-known sci-fi works portray villainous Americas, but the only ones that spring immediately to my mind are Alfred Bester’s “Disappearing Act” and possibly Phillip K. Dick’s “Faith of our Fathers.” Tom Sherred’s portrayal of our leaders & society in “E for Effort” is another possibility. The novels, _Sarkhan_ and _The Ugly American_, both by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick, offer an extremely unflattering view of the U.S. government’s efforts to win friends and influence people in Asia, but the authors seem to blame incompetence and stupidity as much as villainy. I recall a Russian novel that appeared in the late '70’s or early '80’s and became a bestseller in this country. It offered the CIA and the American government as the bad guys and KGB agents as the heroes. I bought it, but cannot recall the title or author, as I found the book a crashing bore and sold it. jdbeatty: It would not be impossible for Americans to be the villains of _Das Boot_. The German and U.S. navies were shooting at each other’s ships during the summer and fall of 1941. In fact, on Oct. 31, 1941, the USS Reuben James became the first American ship to be sunk in WW2 when the Germans torpedoed it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/34 "2004-03-07T19:03:43Z")
Poul Anderson protrayed in his novel _The Corridors of Time_ and his novella “Sam Hall” rather nasty dictatorships in future USA’s. _The Corridors of Time_, unfortunately, seems to be almost unknown to SF fans, but “Sam Hall” is rather well-known, at least I’ve seen it in several anthologies. I also want to say that several other well-known sci-fi works portray villainous Americas, but the only ones that spring immediately to my mind are Alfred Bester’s “Disappearing Act” and possibly Phillip K. Dick’s “Faith of our Fathers.” Tom Sherred’s portrayal of our leaders & society in “E for Effort” is another possibility. The novels, _Sarkhan_ and _The Ugly American_, both by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick, offer an extremely unflattering view of the U.S. government’s efforts to win friends and influence people in Asia, but the authors seem to blame incompetence and stupidity as much as villainy. I recall a Russian novel that appeared in the late '70’s or early '80’s and became a bestseller in this country. It offered the CIA and the American government as the bad guys and KGB agents as the heroes. I bought it, but cannot recall the title or author, as I found the book a crashing bore and sold it. jdbeatty: It would not be impossible for Americans to be the villains of _Das Boot_. The German and U.S. navies were shooting at each other’s ships during the summer and fall of 1941. In fact, on Oct. 31, 1941, the USS Reuben James became the first American ship to be sunk in WW2 when the Germans torpedoed it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/35 "2004-03-07T19:05:44Z")
Ooops, I don’t know what I did, but I’m sorry about it. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/36 "2004-03-07T19:22:11Z")
A particular episode of _The Twilight Zone_ comes to mind, where a woman is terrorized by these miniature spacemen from an invading flying saucer. After many traumatic turns-of-events, she finally gets the better of them, only for Serling to pull the reveal: the flying saucer has USA printed on it. ---
**Author:** ![Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moo_the_Magic_Cow)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/37 "2004-03-07T19:35:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > the X-Men movies. The godlike heroes fighting the closed minded neandrathal American government. The first scene has Nightcrawler putting a knife to the President’s throat. > > Erek You’ve greatly oversimplified the story of X-Men 2 to fit it into this scheme. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/38 "2004-03-07T19:37:46Z")
Interestingly, a number of episodes of _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ went out of their way to bash us 20th-century types, including a bit in the first episode in which Picard describes Q as representing a savage period in human history, when the latter had clothed himself in an American WW2 uniform. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/39 "2004-03-07T19:54:49Z")
> [@jdbeatty](#): > > Since the narrative takes place in the fall of 1941, the Americans weren’t even in the war yet. However, US destoryers were escorting convoys across the Atlantic and while they weren’t in the war yet, didn’t hestitate to fire back at any subs they detected near the convoy they were protecting. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/40 "2004-03-07T22:18:30Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > (Though I wouldn’t say the Americans were _villains_ in Grave of the Fireflies. War is the villain.) I tend to agree - the Americans are the enemy, but not villians. If that movie has a villian it’s the boy and girl’s aunt, who was Japanese. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757.md?page=3)