# Which Famous/Significant Works Have "The Americans" as the Villian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 29, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757 "2004-02-29T16:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/41 "2004-03-07T22:53:23Z")
It’s not a signifigant work, but it is reasonably well known: **Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmaron** has the Americans as villians, not just antagonists. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/42 "2004-03-08T04:06:38Z")
In _Das Boot_, the book anyway, the only direct attacks on the U-boat were from a \*British \* destroyer and airplane. They suffered more from a hurricane. The enemy in the story would more fairly be described as the war itself, with the crew as the victims. I’ve seen mention in print of a few modern Russian films, very popular there, in which “the Americans” are seen as the enemy oppressing and pillaging the once-noble Russian people. Don’t have enough for a cite, though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/43 "2004-03-08T05:29:01Z")
Actually, not so fast. Bless you, Google: [“Russian shoot-'em-up pokes holes in an America once revered” By David Filipov, Boston Globe, June 3, 2000](http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/4344.html##3) > [@](#): > > MOSCOW - If President Clinton wanted to better understand how ordinary > Russians view America as he arrives in Moscow today for three days of talks, > he could do worse than to check out the country’s most popular movie. > > The film is called ‘‘Brother 2’’ - yes, it is a sequel - and it appropriates > slick American production techniques and familiar action-film cliches to do a > neat twist on Hollywood’s familiar Russian boogeyman routine. > > The good guys are Russian killers who outwit numerous police and > machine-gun-toting thugs, blow away a cross-section of Chicagoans, avenge the > death of a comrade, and teach a smarmy American crime boss a lesson. All to > the constant beat of Russian rock hits. > > This is merely pop-culture entertainment, but director Alexei Balabanov has > also willingly tapped into Russia’s growing patriotic, and anti-American, > sentiment. The film’s diehard hero, Danila, played by Russian actor Sergei > Bodrov Jr., can romance, shoot guns, crack skulls, and crack one-liners at > least no worse than Stallone, Willis, or Schwarzenegger. And he can outdrink > any of them. > > ‘‘So tell me, American. What is the source of power? Money?’’ Danila asks his > suddenly cornered and cowed American adversary after wiping out his entire > security detail and downing a very large glass of Stolichnaya. ‘‘You have a > lot of money, but so what? I think that strength is in truth. He who has the > truth is stronger.’’ > … > > Whatever the intent, the larger theme of Russia’s lost illusions of America > comes through in the last scene, when one of Danila’s friends makes an > obscene gesture at a US border official and gets on a plane home. The popular > song ‘‘Farewell Letter,’’ with its refrain, ‘‘Goodbye America,’’ kicks in. > Danila grins and orders a vodka. He is going home ---
**Author:** ![jdbeatty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@jdbeatty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jdbeatty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/44 "2004-03-08T13:25:50Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > These movies fit an American template of the lone American hero against a group that’s corrupting America. The lone hero, whether he eventually triumphs or not, is always shown as representing “real America” against the corrupting group. I can’t think of any American film in which it’s claimed that the U.S. is simply hopelessly evil. It’s always implied that “real Americans” don’t agree with the bad guys who are temporarily in control. The “corrupting group” in each case is “the Establishment” of “dark forces” that have “stolen” the country, and it matters little how you define them – liberal, conservative, black or green. Point is that the rest of Americans are dupes or complicit in this massive “conspiracy” against “freedom.” The “real Americans” you describe are just patsies, pawns in a little game between “us” and “them.” Sounds pretty anti-American to me, implying that I’m an idiot or a “traitor” because I don’t buy some nonsense about my “guilt” for things I had nothing to do with. ---
**Author:** ![jdbeatty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@jdbeatty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jdbeatty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/45 "2004-03-08T13:28:31Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > However, US destoryers were escorting convoys across the Atlantic and while they weren’t in the war yet, didn’t hestitate to fire back at any subs they detected near the convoy they were protecting. There were ABSOLUTELY NO AMERICANS in “Das Boot.” Yet you still contend that it was “anti-American?” Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/46 "2004-03-08T14:00:05Z")
jdbeatty writes: \> Point is that the rest of Americans are dupes or complicit in this \> massive “conspiracy” against “freedom.” The “real Americans” you describe are \> just patsies, pawns in a little game between “us” and “them.” Actually, they aren’t shown in general as being dupes or complicit. The “real Americans” are generally shown as being terrorized or oppressed by the bad guys, who have somehow gained power despite not representing the majority of Americans. My real objection to this genre of films is the lack of realism in the power relationships. We’re supposed to believe that the bad guys, despite being a much smaller group of people than the “real Americans,” are able to stay in power over them. And yet when the lone hero fights them, they are easily defeated by him, despite being much more powerful than him. In some sense, this genre makes no sense. In those cases where someone thinks that the actions of the U.S. are evil, there are three possibilities. Either most Americans really are complicit in the evil, or they are controlled so invisibly by the bad guys that they don’t even realize the extent of the evil, or it’s really not an evil at all, just a case where reality forces an ugly compromise that leaves some residual evil that can’t be eliminated. But none of these possibilities is ever shown in this genre of films. This genre of films never shows “real Americans” as being complicit or dupes, and it never acknowledges the possibility of ugly compromises. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/47 "2004-03-08T17:41:41Z")
> [@jdbeatty](#): > > There were ABSOLUTELY NO AMERICANS in “Das Boot.” Yet you still contend that it was “anti-American?” Go figure. I never said the movie was anti-american. All I said was that US destroyers escorted convoys and fired on subs coming near before the US entered the war. We never see what the nationality is of the destoryers attacking the U-boat during the convoy attack, so I contend that there may be Americans in the movie. It’s hard to tell from just the movie(and I haven’t read the book). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/48 "2010-10-25T14:07:50Z")
[Wages of Fear](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wages_of_Fear). ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/49 "2010-10-25T14:28:10Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > [Wages of Fear](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wages_of_Fear). Wow, you must be a Necromancer StusBlues, you’ve just resurrected a 6 years dead Zombie (and I’lm not talking about myself). P.S: The OP is a good question, I cant recall a single movie where the enemy was “The Americans” (the few examples provided in this thread dont match the criteria. They are usually American Villains, but no way at all are they anything like The Russians or The Germans when depicted as villains in Hollywood movies.) ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/50 "2010-10-25T14:48:07Z")
A few years after the OP, the Turks made Iraq Valley of the Wolves. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/51 "2010-10-25T14:56:20Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Dances with Wolves > Little Big Man > Soldier Blue. The good guys are also Americans in those movies. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/52 "2010-10-25T14:59:27Z")
> [@jdbeatty](#): > > Platoon > Apocalypse Now > Hiroshima (TV miniseries) > Little Big Man > The China Syndrome > Rules of Engagement > The Rock > Fall of Saigon (Vietnamese ca 1990) > JFK > > Get the picture? Since the 1960’s it has been fashionable for Hollywood to make films depicting America as the villain, which explains their political bent. They will make a dig at their own country at the drop of a hat, inventing all sorts of evils, directly or indirectly. Not a single one of these movies paints America as a vilain. All of them have Americans as heroes. Your interpretation of these movies as anti-American is completely out to lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/53 "2010-10-25T15:01:35Z")
Whoops. I didn’t realize this was a zombie thread. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/54 "2010-10-25T15:19:15Z")
Would Avatar count, is it just humans in general that are the villains. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/55 "2010-10-25T15:21:06Z")
It’s humans in general. There’s no nationalistic element, and it has several American heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/56 "2010-10-25T15:28:25Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > A few years after the OP, the Turks made Iraq Valley of the Wolves. [Here’s a fairly long review](http://www.aqoul.com/archives/2006/05/turkey_antiwest.php) of Vally of the Wolves - Iraq for context. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/57 "2010-10-25T16:03:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The good guys are also Americans in those movies. But they are, significantly, exiles from their homeland who have voluntarily transferred their allegiance to another group…that is, if you are talking about the main characters. If you mean the American Indians, I think it was pretty clear that the OP was talking about the nation of the US, not the continent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/58 "2010-10-25T16:10:03Z")
“In Bruges,” at least to the main character. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/59 "2010-10-25T16:18:45Z")
_All Quite On The Western Front_ although it may be a generalized allied enemy and not specifically American. \*The Bridge \*(1959) a German film about a group of 16-year old boys who are sent to defend a bridge against the invading American soldiers. A truly devastating anti-war movie. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757/60 "2010-10-25T16:41:58Z")
I’ve always wondered about Verne’s original _Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Seas_…going from dim memory, there’s a passage in there where Nemo observes slaves laboring on an island under the flag of some hated and infamous nation that is left unnamed. Is it possible he was referring to the United States? The book was apparently published in 1869, which might or might not mean Verne was aware of the end of slavery in the United States; or he might have simply been ignoring the then-recent changes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-famous-significant-works-have-the-americans-as-the-villian/231757.md?page=4)