# Which government functions can we do without? (Tim R. Mortiss) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 2, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090 "2019-01-02T13:14:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/41 "2019-01-02T21:08:20Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m all for reducing the federal deficits and the national debt. But how about we look at things like getting rid of the penny and the nickel, as both cost more to produce than face value. Get rid of the one-dollar bill, to be replaced by a dollar coin (and consider larger value coins, such as perhaps a ten-dollar coin). Increase spending on IRS auditors to go after tax cheats, as I think such spending can be very profitable. Repeal the Trump tax cuts that benefit only the wealthy. Charge companies a realistic amount to drill for oil on national lands. Indeed the IRS bring in many times what is spent on enforcement. I like all these ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/42 "2019-01-02T21:10:55Z")
Tough call, but I’d go with HUD, the main reason being that cities and localities all have to develop their own housing and whatnot, federal governmental oversight or not. It’s mostly a self-fixing problem. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/43 "2019-01-02T21:12:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Tough call, but I’d go with HUD, the main reason being that cities and localities all have to develop their own housing and whatnot, federal governmental oversight or not. It’s mostly a self-fixing problem. But they don’t. Racist Southern states will cheerfully ignore the issues in the mostly black urban areas. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/44 "2019-01-02T21:18:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How detailed / precise do I need to be in describing a department’s function to be permitted to vote for it’s elimination? You should be able to describe what the program does and what you propose to replace it with if it’s shut down. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/45 "2019-01-02T21:20:51Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Setting a target isn’t random, nor is it devoid of knowledge of risks. Why add this condition? So how have you surmised the government needs a 25% haircut? What source has told you this target is achievable without causing more harm than good? Sounds like an arbitrary number you’ve produced without looking at any risk assessments, but hey, maybe I’m wrong and you actually have data to support this target. > [@](#): > > As a threshold matter, first there needs to be either agreement or understanding that setting targets or benchmarks is very normal. Doing so blindly or just picking levels out of a hat is not. Yes, over cutting an agency that performs a critical function could be bad. Yay for the obvious. No one has denied the merit of setting targets. What conservatives fail to articulate is what govt services and functions they believe should be axed to shrink government to the size they desire. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/46 "2019-01-02T21:24:59Z")
While I am sure that HUD does useful work, it really isn’t something that the Federal government should be concerned with. Unlike the Department of Transportation, houses rarely get up and cross state lines, so it’s not clear how you really justify the existence of the department. I would probably fold these together into single entities: Department of the Treasury / Department of Commerce -\> Department of the Treasury Department of the Interior / Department of Transportation -\> Department of the Interior And I would reapportion Homeland Security and the DOJ. Right now, for example, the FBI falls under the heading of the DOJ. But half of the work they perform is national security, which should fall under the purview of Homeland Security. Really, we should split everything natsec or foreign prosecution out of the FBI and DOJ and throw them under Homeland Security, and anything purely domestic and shove it under the DOJ. Right now it’s all a bit cattywampus. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/47 "2019-01-02T21:31:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So how have you surmised the government needs a 25% haircut? What source has told you this target is achievable without causing more harm than good? Sounds like an arbitrary number you’ve produced without looking at any risk assessments, but hey, maybe I’m wrong and you actually have data to support this target. More harm than good? A reduction in government to a minimal level that which 25% is not even close is a good unto itself as a matter of first principles. > [@](#): > > No one has denied the merit of setting targets. What conservatives fail to articulate is what govt services and functions they believe should be axed to shrink government to the size they desire. There’s plenty in this thread. Essential DHS functions can be reabsorbed into other departments. Eliminating farm subsidies. Eliminating the department of education. Most of HUD. Ending the war on drugs. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You should be able to describe what the program does and what you propose to replace it with if it’s shut down. Replace it with nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/48 "2019-01-02T21:49:09Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Who says it has to be based on feelings? If the current deficit is 4.5% of GDP, and the historical average is 3.2%, is it feelings to say we should set a target to be more in line with the historical average? If we can achieve that, then the next goal could be further reductions. A target is goal setting. I could easily be missing something because this seems really normal to me so I’m not understanding the opposition. Because it’s simply a feeeeling that the deficits must be addressed by cutting services. A more rational approach is to have a debate about what services we want our government to provide, and at the same time, how much we are willing to fund them through taxes. The government is fully in control of both of these fiscal levers, so to jump to the conclusion that the deficit should be managed by using only one lever is not a rational starting point. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/49 "2019-01-02T21:54:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > More harm than good? A reduction in government to a minimal level that which 25% is not even close is a good unto itself as a matter of first principles. And so this is where you start conflating ideological beliefs with rational arguments and I walk away. But not before proposing we slash your local law enforcement budget by 25%. So there. Don’t ask me why I think 25% is a righteous target. It’s a good unto itself, ok? First principles. And then after we hack off 25%, we can reduce 25% of that. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/50 "2019-01-02T22:00:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because it’s simply a feeeeling that the deficits must be addressed by cutting services. > > A more rational approach is to have a debate about what services we want our government to provide, and at the same time, how much we are willing to fund them through taxes. The government is fully in control of both of these fiscal levers, so to jump to the conclusion that the deficit should be managed by using only one lever is not a rational starting point. I think that’s a better approach. But this thread was about only one of the levers, which cuts to make, not the balance between cuts and taxes. There wasn’t much discussion about appropriate level of taxation so the focus was on the cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/51 "2019-01-02T22:04:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think that’s a better approach. But this thread was about only one of the levers, which cuts to make, not the balance between cuts and taxes. But the question as phrased allowed for one to answer in any way they wished. For example, the question was posed as which department to shutter, but you opted for haircuts. Not cutting is also an option on the poll. With that much leash, I don’t think that anyone is actually constrained from offering reasonable ideas that weren’t specifically mentioned in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/52 "2019-01-02T22:17:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You should be able to describe what the program does and what you propose to replace it with if it’s shut down. Ok, then, for starters, I’d shut down HUD and not replace it. HUD primarily provides rental assistance through various programs. That would save the federal government something like $50B a year. Not enough, but it’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/53 "2019-01-02T22:19:00Z")
At that point I think it gets into a wishlist of transforming the government into something entirely different with no clear path from here to there. I mean, if there was a low tax/low service option with negative income tax to replace all other transfer payments, I’d vote for that. But I did attempt to constrain comments to the cuts side since that was what the thread appeared to be. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/54 "2019-01-02T22:21:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Ok, then, for starters, I’d shut down HUD and not replace it. HUD primarily provides rental assistance through various programs. That would save the federal government something like $50B a year. Not enough, but it’s a start. Yeah, screw those poor and homeless people. They dont pay taxes anyway! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/55 "2019-01-02T22:40:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, screw those poor and homeless people. They dont pay taxes anyway! > :rolleyes: Homeless people probably aren’t benefiting from HUD, sort of by definition. As for the poor, I’ve got no particular objection to them, but I don’t think rental assistance is the Constitutional role of the federal government. If states want to operate HUD-like programs, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/56 "2019-01-02T22:46:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Homeless people probably aren’t benefiting from HUD, sort of by definition. As for the poor, I’ve got no particular objection to them, but I don’t think rental assistance is the Constitutional role of the federal government. If states want to operate HUD-like programs, have at it. They most certainly are: _Continuum of Care Program Promotes community-wide commitment to the goal of ending homelessness; provides funding for efforts to quickly re-house homeless individuals and families, while minimizing trauma and dislocation; promotes access to and effective utilization of mainstream programs; and optimizes self-sufficiency among individuals and families experiencing homelessness. Emergency Solutions Grants (ESG) Program Grants to support essential services related to emergency shelter and street outreach, including building rehabilitations and conversions into emergency shelters, operation of emergency shelters, short-term and medium-term rental assistance, and housing relocation and stabilization services. Federal Surplus Property for Use to Assist Persons Experiencing Homelessness (Title V) Enables states, local governments, and nonprofit organizations to use suitable and available federal properties, which are categorized as unutilized, underutilized, excess, or surplus, to assist persons experiencing homelessness. Homeless Assistance Programs Previously Authorized under the McKinneyVento Homeless Assistance Act_ [https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/Main/documents/HUDPrograms2018.pdf](https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/Main/documents/HUDPrograms2018.pdf) and so forth. The point behind HUD is that we can’t trust the racist Southern states to spend money helping poor black people. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/57 "2019-01-02T22:53:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … The point behind HUD is that we can’t trust the racist Southern states to spend money helping poor black people. Shouldn’t that be up to each state, Southern and the rest? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/58 "2019-01-02T23:02:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Shouldn’t that be up to each state, Southern and the rest? No, the Constitution guarantees equal rights for all. Should we allow the southern states to simply say that blacks can’t vote? They have already brought back Jim Crow. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/59 "2019-01-02T23:34:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, the Constitution guarantees equal rights for all. > > Should we allow the southern states to simply say that blacks can’t vote? They have already brought back Jim Crow. Housing assistance isn’t a Constitutional “right”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090/60 "2019-01-02T23:34:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Shouldn’t that be up to each state, Southern and the rest? What benefit programs, if any, do you feel are appropriate for the Federal government (as opposed to letting the states handle everything)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-government-functions-can-we-do-without-tim-r-mortiss/827090.md?page=4)