# Which harmed US more, 9/11/01 or 3/20/03? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810 "2007-09-11T18:21:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/21 "2007-09-12T09:47:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Interesting. Not, of course, your opinion of Iraq, which was expected, but your curious view of the War of 1812. Seems to me that there were a lot of issues between Great Britain and the U.S. that in the context of early ninteenth-century geopolitics couldn’t have been settled without a war. Why do you regard it as a mistake? [/QUOTE] Chihuahuas can have issues with Great Danes but if they have any brains they don’t pick fights with them. It was the US that declared war and promptly got its butt kicked. It’s hard for me to see how declaring war and losing it can be viewed as anything but a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/22 "2007-09-12T13:04:21Z")
Uh huh. Well, certain Chihuahuas in the Mideast are picking a big fight with a Great Dane right now. Would you describe them as smart? In any case, the outcome of the War of 1812 was that Great Britain stopped impressing American sailors, and in the future negotiated any boundary dispute directly by negotiation with the United States, which they now recognized as a sovereign state. For our part, we gave up the foolish notion of invading Canada, and general peace has prevailed between our three countries ever since. Win-win, which seldom happens in a war, and I don’t know how these things might have been settled otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/23 "2007-09-12T13:21:34Z")
How anyone regardless of their position on Iraq could think that 9/11 was more damaging to America than the clusterfuck we have now is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/24 "2007-09-13T01:22:25Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Uh huh. Well, certain Chihuahuas in the Mideast are picking a big fight with a Great Dane right now. Would you describe them as smart? In any case, the outcome of the War of 1812 was that Great Britain stopped impressing American sailors, and in the future negotiated any boundary dispute directly by negotiation with the United States, which they now recognized as a sovereign state. For our part, we gave up the foolish notion of invading Canada, and general peace has prevailed between our three countries ever since. Win-win, which seldom happens in a war, and I don’t know how these things might have been settled otherwise. [/QUOTE] Perhaps this is a tangent, but I learned in grade school that negotiation settled the issues before the declaration of war was printed up and put on the boat to Blighty, and that had virtually instantaneous communication of the settlement been available, we could have skipped the entire war. Has this been debunked by more recent scholarship? ---
**Author:** ![Tibidabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Tibidabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibidabo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/25 "2007-09-13T13:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] The sympathy engendered by 9/11 was a diamond encrusted golden opportunity [/QUOTE] The sad truth is that for Bush and for anyone connected with Haliburton, and their ilk… it was not a wasted opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/26 "2007-09-13T13:40:26Z")
Maybe I’m not a regular Merkin, living in a county where only 15% of the folks are “white”, but the Iraqis are white, aren’t they? Caucausians with olive skin? I have Italian friends darker than many Iraqis. And I have a lot of pro-war relatives and not even the most jingoistic has used racial terms describing the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/27 "2007-09-13T15:33:08Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Perhaps this is a tangent, but I learned in grade school that negotiation settled the issues before the declaration of war was printed up and put on the boat to Blighty, and that had virtually instantaneous communication of the settlement been available, we could have skipped the entire war. Has this been debunked by more recent scholarship? [/QUOTE] Only true for the Battle of New Orleans, fought after the signing of the Treaty of Ghent. The British got word of the treaty at the end of the battle, and decided not to continue fighting. Well enough for them, as the battle for them was a loss. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/28 "2007-09-13T15:42:25Z")
9/11 was more damaging in that it made the Iraqi invasion possible. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/29 "2007-09-13T22:37:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Only true for the Battle of New Orleans, fought after the signing of the Treaty of Ghent. The British got word of the treaty at the end of the battle, and decided not to continue fighting. Well enough for them, as the battle for them was a loss. [/QUOTE] Well, I had known about the close of the war, but I had been given to understand that the beginning of the war was also a case of “letters crossing in the mail,” so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![MyglassISfull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbce88/32.png) [@MyglassISfull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyglassISfull)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/30 "2007-09-13T23:14:31Z")
[QUOTE=Tibidabo] The sad truth is that for Bush and for anyone connected with Haliburton, and their ilk… it was not a wasted opportunity. [/QUOTE] 9/11 was certainly not wasted, but maybe mis-used? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/31 "2007-09-14T07:50:25Z")
9/11 was worse, because it changed our whole culture in a negative, fundamental way. The Iraq war was bad, but we’re still pretty much the same people now as we were before. If you want to talk about “what’s worse for the cause of world peace” or “what’s worse for the Middle East?” then the Iraq war is a no brainer winner there. Or maybe not, on second thought. America’s invasion and occupation of Iraq is directly leading to the swelling of Iran’s influence in the region, which might turn out to be a stabilizing factor after we finally leave. No matter how much we don’t like them, Iran’s government is the most stable in the Middle East, and the citizens of Iran are “free” by most definitions of the word ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/32 "2007-09-14T13:07:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] 9/11 was worse, because it changed our whole culture in a negative, fundamental way. [/QUOTE] That is a REALLY good point. Thanks. 9/11 was a horrific series of events, but they were pretty much isolated, and needn’t directly affect the daily lives of every American. But we bought into a culture of fear, eagerly casting away freedoms in the hopes of some security. A definite shift. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/33 "2007-09-14T13:26:27Z")
**Mr. Moto** , any response to the _actual_ OP? I believe that the invasion of Iraq was by far much, much more harmful to the US than the attacks of September 11th. **Mosier** does have a point that 9/11 gave Bush and the Republicans license to wreak havoc on a great deal of our civil liberties and an easy rallying point for his Manichean mentality. However, I’d still say that the negative effects for America, both directly and secondarily as a member of the world at large, are far more dire as a result of Bush’s war than the terrorists attack. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/34 "2007-09-14T13:33:24Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] 9/11 was worse, because it changed our whole culture in a negative, fundamental way. [/QUOTE] Good point. Bigotry against Muslims is acceptable by far too many in the US. Surrendering civil liberties should be unthinkable, but too many don’t care. The pre 9/11 US was a better nation than it is now. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/35 "2007-09-14T19:42:34Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] 9/11 was more damaging in that it made the Iraqi invasion possible. [/QUOTE] Well, yes and no. It certainly made it easier to get the public behind invading Iraq, but seeing as how this bunch was hot to trot into Iraq from the get-go, they likely would have done it anyway. A bit-off-the-topic stray thought: maybe the only thing keeping these clowns from invading Iran is the military saying to them, “I you wanna do that, you’ll have to do it with two Jeeps and a refurbished Gatling gun; this well is dry.” ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810/36 "2007-09-14T20:10:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] 9/11 was worse, because it changed our whole culture in a negative, fundamental way. [/QUOTE] No, I’d disagree with that. The attack didn’t change the culture; our leaders’ response to the attack - including their decision to include Iraq in into the 9/11 response - did as much to create the cultural climate as the attack did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-harmed-us-more-9-11-01-or-3-20-03/418810.md?page=1)