# Which human bred plant is the most genetically different from the original ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 19, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626 "2017-07-19T03:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/21 "2017-07-20T06:51:12Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Apparently there are some [sugar cane hybrids](http://www.genetics.org/content/180/1/649.full) that are dodecaploid (12x) having arisen from diploid ancestors. Ooh, nice one. That’s looking like a winner: > [@](#): > > sugarcane probably has the most complex of all crop genomes studied to date, mainly due to its very high degree of polyploidy (∼12x) and interspecific origin ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/22 "2017-07-20T13:44:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Naah - as **Broomstick** hints at, maize is a great _morphological_ change of teosinte, it’s still diploid. To quote [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize#Origin), my emphasis: “The difference between the two is largely controlled **by differences in just two genes** ” Yeah, I think folks are focusing on phenotype difference instead of genotype differences, which the OP explicitly stated he or she was interested in (the latter, that is). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/23 "2017-07-20T13:54:34Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Thank you MR Dribble. So far Corn seems to be the winner No, that’s backwards. Corn is an example of gross morphological changes which did _not_ require gross genetic changes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/24 "2017-07-20T14:46:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, that’s backwards. Corn is an example of gross morphological changes which did _not_ require gross genetic changes. “[corn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_(disambiguation))” doesn’t just mean maize (although it might to the OP). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/25 "2017-07-20T14:48:08Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Thank you MR Dribble. So far Corn seems to be the winner It’s **MrDibble** , one word, no “r”. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/26 "2017-07-20T16:45:21Z")
Here is a nice trivia tidbit vaguely related to this discussion and to the subject of substantial phenotype changes among the various Brassica species… What do you get if you cross cabbage (_Brassica oleracea_) and rape (_Brassica campestris_ as in rape seed oil)? Seriously… [something resembling](http://www.biologydiscussion.com/chromosomes/chromosome-number/polyploidy-and-evolution-of-species/37294) a turnip. Plants can make huge morphological changes through adding one or more complete copies of the parental genome. Perhaps a third of all flowering plants exhibit polyploidy of this sort. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/27 "2017-07-20T17:33:33Z")
Polyploidism is surprisingly easy to achieve. It happens naturally fairly often in plants. It’s really not that big of a deal, achievement-wise. Also, in many cases, polyploidism itself doesn’t make a big change in the plant. But it is the _tool_ that can be used to make changes. Those extra chromosomes allow a wider range of changes that can be bred for. It’s what you do afterwards that’s the key. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/28 "2017-07-20T18:56:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (It’s not an answer to your question, but I was surprised to learn that the seemingly very different > [ul][li]cabbage,[/li][li]broccoli,[/li][li]cauliflower,[/li][li]kale,[/li][li]Brussels sprouts,[/li][li]collard greens,[/li][li]savoy,[/li][li]kohlrabi, and[/li][li]gai lan[/ul][/li]are _all_ human-bred cultivars of a **single species** , _Brassica oleracea_.) The breeders were trying to produce a version that tasted good enough for humans to eat! Someday they might. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/29 "2017-07-20T22:24:09Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > The breeders were trying to produce a version that tasted good enough for humans to eat! Someday they might. Where have you been? They succeeded years ago. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/30 "2017-07-20T22:32:00Z")
I beg to differ. ---
**Author:** ![Anaglyph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anaglyph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaglyph)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/31 "2017-07-21T08:37:35Z")
Many “seedless” version of fruits are produced by crossing a diploid with a tetraploid version of the same species - the triploid offspring can undergo normal cell division, but the meiotic cell division needed to produce viable seeds is no longer possible. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/32 "2017-07-21T09:14:25Z")
It may well be disease resistant wheat , hybridised in the 20th century with very distant relatives in order to transfer in disease resistance from that relative. Rather than the result occuring in the first or second generation, the results only bear fruit , or seeds in this case, after many generations… See [Introgression - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introgression) Starlink wheat was GM’ed by gene splicing. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/33 "2017-07-21T12:12:48Z")
Ploidy is far from the only way to evaluate “gross genetic differences”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/34 "2017-07-21T12:40:06Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Ploidy is far from the only way to evaluate “gross genetic differences”. Obviously - I wouldn’t hold up monospecific polyploidy as being particularly indicative. But multispecific polyploidy, I would. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/35 "2017-07-21T13:53:15Z")
I am told that cherries and strawberries used to be smaller and tastier than they are today, and that a tomato from 70 years ago was leaps and bounds more delicious than the modern one. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/36 "2017-07-21T14:33:25Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I am told that cherries and strawberries used to be smaller and tastier than they are today, and that a tomato from 70 years ago was leaps and bounds more delicious than the modern one. Keep in mind, most of those reports are from the elderly whose sense of taste has greatly diminished from their youth and memories of taste are tricky anyway. What you need is a real comparison between true heirloom fruits and the current ones sold in mass. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/37 "2017-07-21T15:59:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (It’s not an answer to your question, but I was surprised to learn that the seemingly very different > [ul][li]cabbage,[/li][li]broccoli,[/li][li]cauliflower,[/li][li]kale,[/li][li]Brussels sprouts,[/li][li]collard greens,[/li][li]savoy,[/li][li]kohlrabi, and[/li][li]gai lan[/ul][/li]are _all_ human-bred cultivars of a **single species** , _Brassica oleracea_.) For anyone who’s still confused: These are not steps in a single, complex transformation. Rather they are each an example of what happens if you breed the original (wild mustard) in a specific direction. Here’s a good illustration: [![](http://also.kottke.org/misc/images/brassica-oleracea.jpg) ](http://also.kottke.org/misc/images/brassica-oleracea.jpg) This does not show all the outcomes which are now commercial products either. If the question were which original plant has resulted in the biggest variety of modern food crops, I’m pretty sure wild mustard would win hands down. But back to the OP, what about some of the Winter-hardy plants, like hardy kiwifruit or pears? They’ve had to go the farthest in very different traits in order to be useful. I’d think that increases the diversity of change. . . ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/38 "2017-07-21T20:07:48Z")
I have some vague recollection of domesticated brassicas originating from some distinct wild types, but I’m going to demand a cite from myself on that one. > [@MrDibble](#): > > “[corn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_(disambiguation))” doesn’t just mean maize (although it might to the OP). This is an American board. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/39 "2017-07-21T20:51:42Z")
It may seem like there should be some natural quantitative way to measure degree of genetic difference, but I can’t see any obvious way to deal with either polyploidy or hybridization in such a measure. On the one hand, when you’ve got an octoploid crop, three quarters of its genome wasn’t present in the original population. That looks like a big difference. But on the other hand, if you look at the wild type, its entire genome is contained in the crop version’s genome, and so they look almost identical. And then there’s the process: Polyploidy happens fairly easily among plants, and someone else starting with the same wild plant could double it twice and end up with the same octoploid final result. Similar questions arise with hybrids. Compare a hybrid to either of its direct ancestors, and you find that half of its genome is different. But you’ll get basically the same result every time you hybridize those two plants-- Is that really such a big change? On the other hand, you can also human-breed a crop that differs in just one single gene, or even just one single base-pair, from the wild type. But _which_ gene or base pair? If you try again to change just one single gene, you’re likely to get something completely different from the first time, and quite possibly nonviable. I think the best approach here would need to come from information theory. The more information is required to describe a crop’s genetic differences from the wild type, the more different it should be regarded as. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626/40 "2017-07-22T01:27:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > On a somewhat related note, I’m wondering if anyone can confirm something I read. > > I’m sure a lot of people have heard the story about how everyone use to believe tomatoes were poisonous. For hundreds of years, people refused to eat tomatoes because of this belief. Until one day, somebody actually bit into a tomato and said “Hey, this isn’t poisonous! Somebody get me some bacon and lettuce and two slices of bread!” > > But what I read was that the common belief that tomatoes were poisonous was based on reality. Tomatoes really were poisonous for a long time. They were grown as ornamental plants because people liked their appearance. But they’re closely related to other poisonous species and also contained poison. > > Then somebody happened to breed a non-poisonous tomato and that’s when people starting eating them. (Granted, it took a little while for word to get around that there were now non-poisonous tomatoes being grown.) But the point is that the belief that tomatoes were poisonous wasn’t just an irrational superstition; it actually was true at the time it was believed. The story is just an example of people wanting to believe that their ancestors were dumb. Tomato\* leaves\* are indeed, slightly poisonous. So is the green unripe fruit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-human-bred-plant-is-the-most-genetically-different-from-the-original/791626.md?page=3)