# Which ideal is more important to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727 "2010-11-15T10:09:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/1 "2010-11-15T10:09:30Z")
Use whatever criteria and definitions strike you intuitively as the most relevant. Obviously, aside from a few ideologues out there, I’m sure that the only \*correct \*answer is “it depends.” But I think there’s information to be gleaned from forcing (or being forced into) one choice or the other; the thread is the place to discuss exactly _how_ it depends. It’s better to cast a vote you’re not 100% comfortable with (and then to explain why in-thread) than to abstain from voting altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/2 "2010-11-15T10:16:41Z")
Being considerate is pretty much overriding for me, but I think you are mostly not doing people any favours by lying to them. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/3 "2010-11-15T10:57:29Z")
Well since truth is relative, I couldn’t count the number of times that I have KNOWN the truth only to turn out wrong, I’ll go for what I control - my behavior towards others. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/4 "2010-11-15T14:19:44Z")
Oh, dear. It seems I’ve buggered this up. I was trying to phrase the question in a way that might lead to some substantial disagreement, but so far it’s unanimous for consideration of others. Would anyone change their answer if the second choice was “Consideration for _the feelings_ of others”? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/5 "2010-11-15T20:05:40Z")
Tough question of course. I think in most cases honesty is the best policy. You don’t have to be brutal about it. If your aunt Sarah gives you a fruitcake and then asks you how you liked it, you can just say “Thanks, I’m not a big fan of fruitcake but thanks for thinking of me.” That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/6 "2010-11-15T20:24:29Z")
Lying is a greater harm than hurting someone’s feelings. This is true for various reasons, but among them is the fact that lies are often exposed, sooner or later. So the victim of a lie then faces _both_ the original hard truth, and the fact of the deceit. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/7 "2010-11-15T20:52:54Z")
Of course it depends on the situation, and sometimes brutal truth is needed. But I’ve decided that for me, being happy is more imporant than being right. And that often means having consideration for the feelings of others. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/8 "2010-11-15T21:46:37Z")
There’s a saying in my industry: _In truth, lies victory._ As a chess player, I train hard to be able to deduce truth from a chaotic mess of fragmented information. It’s in my nature. In fact, I consider it the only proper way to go about life. I (and relatives like me) have been called “harsh” before, but there’s no reason to sugar coat things. Hiding the truth does a disservice to everyone. Of course, there are degrees of this, but you asked me to put on my ideologue hat. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/9 "2010-11-15T21:49:35Z")
A person who tells the brutal truth at all times, is simply a brutal person. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/10 "2010-11-15T23:07:43Z")
This discussion brings this ad to mind: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdy3orO6tQA) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/11 "2010-11-15T23:11:18Z")
The only possible answer I could give to such a question is, “It depends”. I don’t have fixed answers to such questions and I wouldn’t want to associate with anyone who does. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/12 "2010-11-15T23:16:47Z")
I voted for _consideration_, even though that’s not quite the word I use. I try to behave in a loving manner to all. That doesn’t mean that I act as if I feel the emotion of affection for everyone; rather, that I try to show agape to all. And, as someone once pointed out, “I’d rather always be kind than always tell the truth, 'cause I’m a hell of a lot more sure of what the former is than the latter.” ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/13 "2010-11-15T23:26:10Z")
Being honest _is_ “consideration for others” so, in my mind, picking the second is really like picking both. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/14 "2010-11-15T23:38:54Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Lying is a greater harm than hurting someone’s feelings. That statement is untrue. There are plenty of situations in which speaking the truth is contraindicated. The truth is not magic. It is irresponsible and silly to act as if it were. I’m not saying that lying is preferable to telling the truth under most circumstances. I’m not even saying that truth shouldn’t be preferred, all things being equal. I’m saying that, when you can reasonably foretells that speaking the truth will harm someone to no purpose other than some mythical Kantian bullshit, and lying will most likely cause less harm, telling the truth is generally selfish, often callous, frequently cruel, and occasionally evil. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/15 "2010-11-16T00:16:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m saying that, when you can reasonably foretells that speaking the truth will harm someone to no purpose other than some mythical Kantian bullshit, and lying will most likely cause less harm, telling the truth is generally **selfish** , often **callous** , frequently **cruel** , and occasionally **evil**. Well, I don’t get called any of those things very often. Thanks. ☹ How about an example? A situation in which _you would prefer to be lied to?_ ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/16 "2010-11-16T00:18:50Z")
Neither of these ideals is important to me at all for its own sake. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/17 "2010-11-16T00:56:06Z")
The problem is, the question wasn’t put in the context of interpersonal relations only. Should I lie about religion to avoid hurting the feelings of a believer? Should I lie about a traffic accident I witnessed to avoid hurting the driver at fault? Should I tell a lie about a personal matter to a congressional investigation to avoid hurting my wife? Sure, there are lots of times when a harmless lie might save someone’s feelings. But there is no doubt in my mind that truth is a much higher value in general. For myself, I wish people wouldn’t lie to me to save my feelings; mostly I don’t believe them anyway. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/18 "2010-11-16T04:38:16Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > How about an example? A situation in which _you would prefer to be lied to?_ “What do you mean, ‘I could hear you masturbating’?” But there are other, non-trivial examples which I’m sure are harder to see because of an uncontrollable, indignant reaction, in spite of the fact that we could well be happier in ignorance. > [@Carmady](#): > > Neither of these ideals is important to me at all for its own sake. What ideal is important for it’s own sake? > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The problem is, the question wasn’t put in the context of interpersonal relations only. Should I lie about religion to avoid hurting the feelings of a believer? Should I lie about a traffic accident I witnessed to avoid hurting the driver at fault? Should I tell a lie about a personal matter to a congressional investigation to avoid hurting my wife? Probably, no, and it depends. But seriously, in cases like these, the potential for directly hurt feelings is trumped by the potential for much greater unhappiness which can be brought about indirectly though a lie. That is, are you telling the truth because Truth Is Good, or because a lie will ultimately, in aggregate, have worse consequences? And what are those ultimate consequences I’m concerned about? > [@](#): > > For myself, I wish people wouldn’t lie to me to save my feelings; mostly I don’t believe them anyway. But you have incomplete information. You’re not able to factor in all the times someone lied to you, got away with it, and made you happier in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/19 "2010-11-16T05:00:10Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > But you have incomplete information. You’re not able to factor in all the times someone lied to you, got away with it, and made you happier in the process. They have incomplete information too. They don’t know how many other times people have told me the truth about something, and for them to lie about it just sounds lame. Maybe I need to be reminded that my one annoying personal habit (I assure you I only have one) is coming to the fore again. You (and most of the others, I guess) seem to be espousing a sort of utilitarian approach to this issue, the greatest good for the greatest number. Telling the truth is only better when the outcome is better than lying. I think the truth has an intrinsic value, and that lying is only acceptable when the lie is harmless and telling the truth is useless. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727/20 "2010-11-16T09:18:35Z")
My problem is with the idea of fidelity to the truth. That implies being 100% truthful all the time, which would therefore exclude lies of omission, social fictions, etc. The world of **Liar, Liar** is not a good world. There are a lot of things you think that you don’t want to say. If I don’t tell you that I think you are stupid, and act like I don’t think that, I’m still lying in some absolutist sense. Furthermore, I will point out that my professed religion actually states that treating others well is at least the second most important thing, if not equal to the first. It states that love is more important than myriads of other things. Someone who lies can be forgiven as making a mistake. Someone who doesn’t love other people is said to not be a Christian at all. That still doesn’t mean I don’t strive to do as much of both as I possibly can, though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-ideal-is-more-important-to-you/560727.md?page=2)