# Which is a better name - sub-machine gun or machine pistol? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2012, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023 "2012-08-29T11:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/21 "2012-08-31T20:16:47Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > As I understand it, a Carbine is just a short rifle. Not neccessarily - the WW2-era [M1 carbine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine) used a bullet smaller than regular rifle rounds, and similar in shape (albeit longer) to automatic pistol ammo. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/22 "2012-08-31T21:33:21Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > As I understand it, a Carbine is just a short rifle. Compare the M-16 Assault Rifle to the M-4 Carbine, which is essentially an M-16 with a shorter barrel and a collapsable stock. The two weapons are effectively identical in every way that matters aside from that. Well I meant: do pistol caliber long guns **need** to be carbine length, or can the be longer? > [@Alessan](#): > > Not neccessarily - the WW2-era [M1 carbine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine) used a bullet smaller than regular rifle rounds, and similar in shape (albeit longer) to automatic pistol ammo. Also tellingly, rifle rounds usually come 20/box, pistol and .30 carbine come 50/box. They were intended to replace pistols for some crews in WWII. Light as hell, at least unloaded. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/23 "2012-08-31T21:38:29Z")
The M1 is a nice-looking gun - an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. I see them around every now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/24 "2012-08-31T21:42:23Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I may be showing ignorance, but if the round isn’t designed for a rifle barrel, rifling in the barrel isn’t going to do much, is it? > > Wouldn’t a long-barreled gun that fired pistol ammo be a carbine? > > Anyway, I voted submarine gun. It is neither rifle nor pistol, except, as \*\*thelurkinghorror \*\*notes, in some subsets of SMG. All modern pistols are rifled. You can easily chamber a rifle for pistol rounds, and plenty have been. See [here](http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/1894centerfire/1894c.asp), just for example. You can’t easily chamber a pistol for rifle rounds, because the rounds are too large for a magazine in the handle, limiting you to a single shot or a revolver, and because the recoil would likely break your wrist. Even small rifle rounds like 5.56mm NATO are significantly higher energy than giant pistol rounds like a .44 magnum (based on my few minutes of googling - anyone with better info feel free to correct me). ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/25 "2012-08-31T21:52:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The M1 is a nice-looking gun - an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. I see them around every now and then. Indeed, I think of the M1 carbine as a sort of proto-PDW: intended to be more powerful than a pistol, but not as heavy or powerful as a rifle. It’s problem, if you can call it that, is that if you expect it to be an assault rifle, you’ll find it underpowered. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/26 "2012-08-31T23:09:13Z")
I would define a Carbine as any rifle-type weapon that is designed to be smaller, such as for vehicular use. Whether it is by making the weapon shorter or giving it a collapsing stock (M4 vs. M-16), or by actually making it a smaller weapon (the M1 Carbine vs the M1 Garand). I could see an SMG being defined as a carbine, except that they’re already defined as SMGs, and it’s hard to beat linguistic inertia. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/27 "2012-09-01T01:11:57Z")
The term “carbine” has undergone some evolution and so today is used in a couple of different ways, some overlapping and some not. Originally in muzzleloader days, a carbine was a cavalryman’s firearm, shorter than a musket and able to be fired from horseback but more powerful than a typical pistol. Then when large-caliber revolver cartridges were developed, short easy-to-wield guns firing the same cartridges were developed, allowing the same ammunition to be fired with greater accuracy and range. This is the basis for one definition of carbine: a short-barreled rifle that shoots a handgun cartridge. This includes the “carbine conversion kit”, when a standard handgun is given a stock, a barrel extension, an expanded magazine and improved or telescopic sights; fans of the **Man from U.N.C.L.E.** tv show may remember that the agents used guns of this type. Another definition is a standard rifle made shorter and lighter for use in situations where tight quarters and ease of handling is paramount. For example, paratroopers might carry a gun that is similar in design to an infantryman’s rifle except for having a shorter barrel and a folding stock to reduce overall length. Yet another definition is a gun that fires a cartridge that is intermediate in size and power between a handgun round and a rifle round. The M1 Carbine used just such a special cartridge. Finally, compared with WW2 era “battle rifles” that shot large powerful rounds like the 30-06 and the .303, today’s “assault rifles” verge on being carbines by definitions 3 & 4. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/28 "2012-09-01T01:26:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The M1 is a nice-looking gun - an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. I see them around every now and then. I want one almost enough to have a gun in the house (I’m best off without one). Specifically, I want one made at the Rock-Ola jukebox factory that used to be just a few Km from my house. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023/29 "2012-09-01T01:29:41Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Even small rifle rounds like 5.56mm NATO are significantly higher energy than giant pistol rounds like a .44 magnum dropdad had a .44 Mag leveraction rifle that about tore my shoulder off first time. Couldn’t imagine shooting his .44 Mag revolver. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-a-better-name-sub-machine-gun-or-machine-pistol/633023.md?page=1)