Someone mentioned the AK-74 phasing out the AK-47 for standing armies? Do they still even produce AK-47’s, or are they hold overs being passed down from father to son? Are the original Kalashnikovs still being produced or are the majority of AK’s Chinese knockoffs? Were those just as reliable?
I always thought the AK-74 used the same ammunition as the M-16. I’ve had experience with the M16A2 and maybe it was just me or the dusty conditions, but that thing did jam on me several times.
THe AK-74 uses the 5.54mm round, while the M-16 the 5.56mm. Close, but not quite the same.
This is part of collection of urban/battlefield legends. The only semi-grain of truth might be from surplus German 8mm Mauser rifles that were often rechambered to fire US 30-06 ammunition. The two cartridges have the same base diameter (the rim at the bottom) and similar body shape but the 30-06 has the case shoulder farther forward. The bore was slightly oversized but it worked okay. Because of the sholder length of 5.56mm and the case diameter of the AK round you could not even chamber one caliiber in the other rifle. I can think of almost no case where a bottleneck rifle cartridge can be safely used in a rifle of the wrong caliber. In most cases the wrong cartridge won’t even chamber but in some combinations the rifle could explode like a grenade from headspace mismatch.
The only exceptions are specific straight walled, rimmed handgun cartridges which are also used in some rifles. Lever action rifles are commonly chambered in .44 magnum and .357 Magnum and in both cases can safely use the corresponding, shorter, “special” cartridge of the same diameter.
Oh, yes, all the guys knew (I was the XO at the time). Stinger guys are VERY decentralized, we had a Section (5 two-man teams, one Section leader, one, maybe two Communicators) for a Marine Regiment (4 Battalions), so there was VERY little actual control over these guys, except through radios. I don’t recall if they were following what the unit they were attached to was doing, or what, but when the shooting stopped and we re-grouped as somewhat of a cohesive unit, the picked-up weapons we disappeared, except for a pair of towed twin 20mm AA cannons that now sit in front of 2nd LAAD Bn in Cherry Point, NC and in front of B Battery, 4th LAAD Bn in Marietta, GA, properly sanitized and made unusable per regulation.
Not an expert, but I have done a bit of research on this. You’re correct in that a tumbling bullet in the air has a bad effect on accuracy, and that rifle bullets tend to yaw and tumble when they hit flesh. The effect of the impact depends on:
a) how fast the bullet is going. The AK 47 round is slow, the M16 screams at short ranges.
b) how far the bullet travels before it begins to yaw - some can travel a fair way, and exit before they begin to tumble. Apparently the old 6.5mm Carcano will travel point-forward for 50cm in tissue simulant before yawing, which means you have to shoot a fairly fat person with it to get a keyhole wound pattern. The standard M16 round yaws after 9-16cm travel in tissue, the armour-piercing version doesn’t. The Soviet 7.62 x 39mm yaws after 26cm, meaning that it can often exit before yawing and leave an uncomplicated wound. The Yugoslav version of the same cartridge yaws after 9cm and so will usually leave a keyhole. No data on the Chinese version.
c) whether the bullet deforms/breaks up or not. That depends on the ammunition and to some extent on the impact velocity, which also depends on the gun and the range. The M16 standard (SS109) ball round has a thin case with a cannelure (crimping groove) that makes it highly prone to disintegration after yawing. The armour-piercing version doesn’t break up. Niether the Soviet or Yugoslav 7.62 x 39 tend to break up, although the Yugoslav does flatten.
The quick answer is, bullets that tumble after a short distance on passing through flesh do more damage than those that don’t, all other things being equal. Bullets that disintegrate on tumbling do MUCH more. And the standard .223 for the M16 tumbles quickly in tissue and disintegrates readily for impacts at 200 yards or less, making them effective people stoppers.
For a LOT more detail, diagrams, pictures and dissenting opinions, try:
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html
If you have to get shot at short range, getting hit by an AK47 firing Soviet ammo will probably mess you up less. At long range, the M16 just punches a little hole and the AK47 misses.
That point (b) should be how far the bullet travels in tissue before it begins to yaw.
Moderator’s Note: I think I’ll shoot this over to IMHO on behalf of the GQ mods.
Or I should say, I had an FAL. 
First, I’m no gun buff. The only things I know about the Kalashnikov have already been outlined in previous posts. There are three guns I want to own: the original Thompson Sub-machine gun with the disc clip, a belt-fed full-auto shotgun, and the gun that will be pried out of Charlton Heston’s cold, dead hands.
That being said, the M-16A2 is extremely prone to jamming in dusty conditions. I was out on a field exercise a couple of days ago. The soil around here is very similar to Afghanistan’s*: it’s essentially brown, compacted talcum powder. It gets everywhere. We were out there for a few hours when the aggressors came a’callin’. In that relatively short time, the dust had changed our weapons from semi-automatics to bolt-action rifles. There’s a dust cover on the place where the spent brass ejects, but apparently that didn’t do a damn thing. Moreover, we have to use blank adaptors out there, which kept dust from coming in the tip of the barrel, and the damn things still kept jamming up.
In short, the M-16 would be an ideal weapon if we ever had to go kick some ass somewhere where there’s actual grass holding the soil down.
*I’ve never been over there, but a guy I work with has. He said “I got on the plane, flew for 30 hours, and wondered how the hell you fly that long and not go anywhere.”
[grinding teeth]Many Thompsons use a drum magazine. Some can only use a stick magazine. None use a clip. Magazines enclose ammunition. Clips such as the M1 Garand’s en-block clip and various stripper clips do not enclose the ammunition. [/GT]
A: You just think you do and B: cool, what caliber ammunition does a metaphorical gun use?
I think he was referring to the Kentucky flintlock Heston was presented with when he made that statement.
Sing it, brother!
That’s one mis-usage that gets under my skin with ease.
He fixed that in the AR-18. Man, I wish I’d bought an AR-180 back in the '80s when I had a chance! I like ugly things.
About the 7.62x39mm wounds vs. the 5.56x45mm wounds: Back in the '80s I saw a book with wound photos in it from Vietnam. There was an article comparing wounds from “our” weapons vs. “their” weapons. Photos of wounds caused by the Russian round in the fleshy part of the calf showed neat entry and exit wounds. Photos showing the same “hit” with an M-16 round showed a ragged mess. Basically, there was meat above and below the entry points, and naked bone between. So at least in some cases, the smaller American round was/is much more devastating.
Anecdotal evidence: I talked to a guy who was a soldier in Vietnam. He said he’d shot a standing VC in a rice paddy. The round entered the VC’s foot and “crawled” its way up to exit the rear torso. This would tend to validate claims of the M-16 round “tumbling” when it hits bone.
IIRC, the 5.56 round can be upset by hitting even a lightweigh object such as a leaf. This might make it tumble before it hits its target, and cause the devastating wounds mentioned above. I read (again, back in the '80s) that the AK-74 round is exceptionally long, which would tend to make it less stable and more prone to tumbling; thus causing more severe wounds.
I am not a ballistics expert, so I am only repeating things that I have personally read in published accounts, or heard from an actual participant.
I have personal experience with dirt in an AR-15. I was going shooting in the desert near my home in Lancaster. I had my rifle slung across my back with the ejection port cover opened. When I reached my destination, I fell off of my motorcycle – flat on my back, and on the rifle. I pulled out the bolt carrier assembly and wiped it off with a rag, and did nothing else as far as cleaning. It worked fine. Not that you’d want to take your rifle apart in a firefight.
Well what are the reports about the M-16 and M-4 coming from Iraq ? I guess they are doing plenty of shooting and gettting plenty of dust and muck on those rifles.
That is not the case. The standard bullet is 123 grains which is lighter, and consequently shorter, than average for a 30 caliber bullet. 7.62NATO uses a 147 grain bullet in ball ammo and a 168 grain Sierra match king for target/sniper ammunition. Length alone doesn’t determine stability but as a general rule heavier/longer bullets and higher velocities require a faster spin rate for stable flight.
I am in an email discussion with a friend who wants to build a .75MOA SKS. I told him nothing is impossible but the odds are against him. I brought up the fact that the AR-15/M-16’s worst flaw is also an advantage for high accuracy, the gas impigement system. When the bullet passes the gas port the pressure pulse has to travel all the way back to the reciever before parts start moving and this may improve accuracy. Most gas operated rifles have the gas piston near the barrel port which means parts are banging around, potentially hurting accuracy. I think this is one of the reasons John Garand put the gas port of the M1 almost at the muzzle. The original design has a gas trap actually past the muzzle so the action did not start moving until the bullet left the barrel.
The AR is also one of the few gas operated rifles where the barrel can be properly free floated with special hand guards. Tube hand guards are popular for sport shooting but service rifle competitors can get a free float tube which has GI look handgards mounted to the outside for the correct as-issued look.
But you’re comparing a .22 to a .30 round. I was under the impression that the AK-74 (not the AK-47) fired a round similar to the 5.56 NATO round. If that is not the case, then the round I (thought I was) referring to is the Russian .22 round. From what I read 20 years ago, the bullet is longer than the 5.56x45 bullet.
D’oh!
Thanks for calling me on that. The best specs I found on the 5.45 round is Wolf ammunition with a 60 grain bullet. The old 5.56mm ammo was 55 grains and the new is 62 so I wouldn’t call it exceptionally long and it really depends on rifling twist but I can’t find the speficication for the AK-74. When I had my AR setup as a varminter I used 69 grain Sierra match kings to get best accuracy. They’re hollowpoint which makes them even longer but I got outstanding accurcacy in a 1:9" barrel. Some folks use 80 grain bullets in .223 but those are so long it’s extremely difficult to cram the bullet in the case far enough with a normal powder charge and still have the overall length short enough to fit an AR-15 magazine.