# Which is better, Star Trek: TOS or Star Trek: TNG? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 22, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187 "2015-06-22T21:57:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/101 "2015-06-24T16:17:21Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Crap! I forgot “Balance of Terror”! :smack: > > For my top ten, I would have to prefer it to “Tomorrow was Yesterday.” (The above are listed in no particular order, BTW.) Tomorrow wasn’t Yesterday! Tomorrow _was_ Yesterday! (The title is actually “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, but expressing this in an outraged tone creates ambiguity) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/102 "2015-06-24T16:18:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Tomorrow wasn’t Yesterday! Tomorrow _was_ Yesterday! > (The title is actually “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, but expressing this in an outraged tone creates ambiguity) Sorry; I must have been working from a first-draft script! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/103 "2015-06-24T16:33:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > An episode written by someone with no knowledge of genetics or evolution. Even if they got seeded a long time ago, there was clearly time for all the races to evolve, and thus no reason they’d develop in lockstep. It doesn’t have to be lockstep as such - _homo sapiens_ as a species has been largely unchanged for thousands, possibly well over a hundred thousand years. If the other species portrayed had a similar path, they might also have similarly stabilized and there’d be a long period of time where multiple planets had intelligent “humanoid” bipeds. If by “develop”, you meant develop technologically, then yes, the species that does so first (even by a trivial 50 years or so) will easily dominate all the others. On Earth, we’ve seen culture clashes where everyone involved had essentially identical genetics, but one side has guns and the other doesn’t, so there’s no real doubt which one will be conquered or even exterminated. Of course, if you had a meeting between four distinct humanoid species (in “The Chase”, they were humans, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians), the last one standing might not even be the one with the best tech, but the one that’s playing host to the most aggressive microbes. The evolution of single-celled lifeforms has allowed them to be far nastier than any mere biped. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/104 "2015-06-24T16:33:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > An episode written by someone with no knowledge of genetics or evolution. Even if they got seeded a long time ago, there was clearly time for all the races to evolve, and thus no reason they’d develop in lockstep. The episode was “The Chase,” BTW - one of my favorites, because of its explanation for all the humanoid alpha races we kept meeting, its appearance by Picard’s beloved archeology guru, and this funny scene with Data and a Klingon captain: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKQDRxs5Nzk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKQDRxs5Nzk). Given our own position atop Earth’s evolutionary ladder, there may indeed be some particular advantages to being a bilaterally symmetrical biped with a single head containing a brain, two eyes, two ears and one mouth. The species we saw in all the varieties of ST didn’t all “develop in lockstep” - there are signficant differences between Humans, Vulcans, Klingons, Cardassians, etc. ---
**Author:** ![scoots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@scoots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scoots)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/105 "2015-06-24T16:45:03Z")
So we’re all agreed - Kirk is more likeable but Picard is closer to a realistic depiction of a starship captain (he may lack a sense of humour but that’s probably not a requirement for such a responsible role) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/106 "2015-06-24T17:15:24Z")
As an afterthought, there could be periods of evolutionary “stasis” (punctuated equilibrium, I guess) for technology, even if genetics are unchanged: 1. Multiple species are seeded. They don’t all become intelligent bipeds at the same time, but they all _stay_ intelligent bipeds for a _long_ time, so it doesn’t really matter who gets there first. 2. The intelligent bipeds gradually come to dominate their worlds, also a lengthy process, so even the laggards can reach this stage. 3. The intelligent bipeds gradually begin to alter their worlds through technology. This also takes a very long time, but the pace of it gets faster and faster, almost exponentially. 4. The intelligent bipeds reach a plateau where they have the means to exterminate themselves, i.e. nuclear weapons or weaponized genetic engineering. Some species don’t survive this stage. 5. If a biped species survives stage 4, they begin to develop space travel, but it takes a long time for them to achieve faster-than-light travel, so their “worlds” expand but are still uniform - the biped cannot reach each other. 6. Eventually one species develops FTL and can make contact with the others. _Possibly_ by then a species that lacks FTL is still sufficiently advanced to defend itself against destruction by a species that has it. Large-scale invasion remains impractical - if a species with FTL wants to colonize your planet (even assuming that your planet’s environment isn’t toxic to them), the only real way to achieve this is to eliminate you first, and you have nukes, so this is difficult. Anyway,one can get quite fanciful with this premise, but I personally maintain that we almost certainly _shouldn’t_ risk direct contact with any alien species, because it won’t be just human-meets-Vulcan (or whatever), but Earth-ecosystem-meets-alien-ecosystem, and one microbe that can cross the divide in either direction could create a massive disaster and it’s pretty much a coin-flip whose. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/107 "2015-06-24T18:04:55Z")
I will point out that TNG did the reset button/cop out ending better than anyone. The most infuriating (for me) would have to be [“The Most Toys”](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Most_Toys_%28episode%29), where Data is shown to have definitively fired at Fajo, but the transporter came on and beamed him back to the Enterprise at the precise moment that he pulled the trigger. They then handwaved away the firing, greatly weakening the Data character in the process. > [@](#): > > Writer Shari Goodhartz related, “I asked Brent Spiner whether he thought Data purposefully pulled the trigger or not, and he was adamant that Data did fire the weapon, which was my intent as well, but the powers-that-be wanted that kept ambiguous, so it was. If I had a chance to do it over, with all the experience I have behind me now, I would argue passionately for Data’s actions and their consequences to have been clearer, and hopefully more provocative.” ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/108 "2015-06-24T18:23:31Z")
An emotional response? Or logic? Either way, they should’ve given Data that meat for his character. Data shot first! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/109 "2015-06-24T19:37:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It doesn’t have to be lockstep as such - _homo sapiens_ as a species has been largely unchanged for thousands, possibly well over a hundred thousand years. If the other species portrayed had a similar path, they might also have similarly stabilized and there’d be a long period of time where multiple planets had intelligent “humanoid” bipeds. > > If by “develop”, you meant develop technologically, then yes, the species that does so first (even by a trivial 50 years or so) will easily dominate all the others. On Earth, we’ve seen culture clashes where everyone involved had essentially identical genetics, but one side has guns and the other doesn’t, so there’s no real doubt which one will be conquered or even exterminated. > > Of course, if you had a meeting between four distinct humanoid species (in “The Chase”, they were humans, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians), the last one standing might not even be the one with the best tech, but the one that’s playing host to the most aggressive microbes. The evolution of single-celled lifeforms has allowed them to be far nastier than any mere biped. I meant technologically. Appearances don’t change that fast, so if humanoid bipeds would evolve (and one can think the inserted DNA forced this) they will look pretty much the same for a long time. I wonder what the genetic coding is for appearance changes that can be modeled in the makeup department with face appliances only? I kind of wish they had made the genetic engineering required for Spock more explicit. One could watch and think he just popped out. And similar DNA a long time ago does not make interbreeding any easier. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/110 "2015-06-24T20:09:41Z")
TNG was better. It had Wesley, Data, Barkley and Q. Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/111 "2015-06-24T20:13:53Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > TNG was better. It had Wesley, Data, Barkley and Q. Nuff said. It sucked. It had Wesley, Data, Barkley and Q. Nuff said! 🙂 Just kidding. I voted TNG. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/112 "2015-06-25T01:12:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I picture both shows having a bell-curve of quality and _TNG_, having more episodes overall, will have more episodes of high quality and more episodes of terrible quality. > > “Yesterday’s Enterprise” and “Inner Light” in a tag-team against “City on the Edge of Forever” and “Balance of Terror”? Tough call. Better to compare two episodes of roughly comparable plot: > > “The Royale” vs “A Piece of the Action”… Wait, “The Royale” actually existed? I thought I’d dreamt seeing that. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/113 "2015-06-25T01:19:47Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Wait, “The Royale” actually existed? I thought I’d dreamt seeing that. Baby needs a new pair of shoes. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/114 "2015-06-25T04:20:01Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > TNG was better. It had Wesley, Data, Barkley and Q. Nuff said. In real life, Barclay wouldn’t have passed Starfleet’s mandatory psychological screening, and Wesley would have been pushed out an airlock before he celebrated his fourteenth birthday. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/115 "2015-06-25T04:45:35Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Wait, “The Royale” actually existed? I thought I’d dreamt seeing that. I have a certain fondness for “The Royale” in part because of its thematic similarly to “Piece of the Action” - the character’s find an impossible anachronism based on an Earth book and the way to resolve the situation is to start playing by its goofy rules. One plot hole, though, is that the Royale and everything in it is completely indestructible yet Data manages to load the dice by squeezing (and presumably partly damaging) them. Well, that also raises the question of how Captain Ritchie lived into old age if he couldn’t eat/“destroy” the food, but no matter. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/116 "2015-06-25T05:31:55Z")
> [@scoots](#): > > So we’re all agreed - Kirk is more likeable but Picard is closer to a realistic depiction of a starship captain (he may lack a sense of humour but that’s probably not a requirement for such a responsible role) Not agreed. We have no idea what "realistic’ is for the completely fictional post of starship captain. The thing that Kirk has (that I don’t get from Picard) is a love of his ship as a thing in-and-of-itself, outside its crew (which Kirk also has over Picard). Maybe that’s the best qualification a starship captain needs… ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/117 "2015-06-25T05:58:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Data manages to load the dice by squeezing (and presumably partly damaging) them. The same device was used in _ **The Questor Tapes** _. Roddenberry was exceptionally creative in recycling material. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/118 "2015-06-25T06:01:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not agreed. We have no idea what "realistic’ is for the completely fictional post of starship captain. In terms of today’s highly regulated (and relatively staid) navies, the Picard/Riker duo is closer to reality. Kirk always reminds me of the motto of the Israeli Army Officer Corps: “Follow me!” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/119 "2015-06-25T07:45:13Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > In terms of today’s highly regulated (and relatively staid) navies, the Picard/Riker duo is closer to reality. Kirk always reminds me of the motto of the Israeli Army Officer Corps: “Follow me!” How do we know the modern Navy is the best model? The _TOS_ Enterprise seems more like an exploration/long-range vessel to me, and there the classic model is more apt than a modern Navy - think the _Beagle_ or _Endeavour_, all officers are gentlemen, that style of thing. Yes, Kirk is clearly in charge, but the relationship with McCoy and Spock is not just that of the relative Navy ranks, there’s also strong friendship there. You’d have to have a real stick up your ass to _constantly_ refer to your 2iC as “Number One” rather than by name for a whole five year mission. And I prefer my captains stick-free. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187/120 "2015-06-25T08:25:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How do we know the modern Navy is the best model? The _TOS_ Enterprise seems more like an exploration/long-range vessel to me, and there the classic model is more apt than a modern Navy - think the _Beagle_ or _Endeavour_, all officers are gentlemen, that style of thing. Yes, Kirk is clearly in charge, but the relationship with McCoy and Spock is not just that of the relative Navy ranks, there’s also strong friendship there. You’d have to have a real stick up your ass to _constantly_ refer to your 2iC as “Number One” rather than by name for a whole five year mission. And I prefer my captains stick-free. Since the original inspiration for Kirk was CS Forester’s Horatio Hornblower, of course the classical model best suits _ **TOS** _. The same might be said for JJ Adams in _ **Forbidden Planet** _, another inspiration for Kirk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-better-star-trek-tos-or-star-trek-tng/723187.md?page=7)