# Which is grammatically correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527 "2004-07-30T00:54:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/41 "2004-08-06T16:45:26Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I’ll respectfully disagree with you. The above sentence is a composite of two dependant clauses both beginning with coordinating conjunctions. It is therefore not grammatically correct. If you begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction, it becomes a default dependent clause and the clause needs to be followed by a comma and then (eventually) an independent clause. Are you talking about the first sentence in the OP’s question? If you are, then you’re incorrect: that sentence has only one clause, and that clause is independent. “We are enjoying a summertime of relentless rain, and a few really nice days.” is a single clause, with a singular subject (we), a singular simple predicate (are enjoying), a plural direct object (a summertime), and a compound adverbial prepositional phrase (of relentless rain, and a few really nice days). The comma between “rain” and “and” is unnecessary, but it may remain in the sentence based on the last rule of commas: “Use the suckers where their absence will create confusion.” That said, I’m not sure that it lessens the confusion: the comma, to me, makes it look as if it’s a compound direct object (a summertime and a few really nice days), but that doesn’t make any sense. Overall, I think the sentence would be better off totally rewritten. “Our summer has consisted of weeks of rain, interrupted by a few days of sunshine.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/42 "2004-08-06T16:52:17Z")
Does rainfall really affect the quantity/quality of fruit? I assumed with irrigation and modern farming techniques, that rainfall was a minor factor. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/43 "2004-08-06T17:31:55Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Are you talking about the first sentence in the OP’s question? If you are, then you’re incorrect: that sentence has only one clause, and that clause is independent. Nope, I was talking about **Polycarp’s** “But, and” sentence. As for the OP’s first sentence, a comma should not be used before a coordinating conjunction that links part of a compound predicate. (Resource: Harbrace College Handbook, p 118) > [@Polycarp](#): > > Restated: “Conjunctions should not be used to start independent sentences. But there are good stylistic grounds that do not contradict proper grammar for their occasional use in the linking of independent statements into a proper expository whole.” Do you see a fault with the adversative “but” in that statement? Stylistically I’d agree with you. My grammar alarm is still going off since the coordinating conjunction is creating a dependant clause. It’s becoming a conjunction that’s not conjoining anything. Of course, I did find [this:](http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm#coordinating_conjunctions) > [@](#): > > Beginning a Sentence with And or But > A frequently asked question about conjunctions is whether and or but can be used at the beginning of a sentence. This is what R.W. Burchfield has to say about this use of and: > > There is a persistent belief that it is improper to begin a sentence with And, but this prohibition has been cheerfully ignored by standard authors from Anglo-Saxon times onwards. An initial And is a useful aid to writers as the narrative continues. > from The New Fowler’s Modern English Usage > edited by R.W. Burchfield. Clarendon Press: Oxford, England. 1996. > Used with the permission of Oxford University Press. > > The same is true with the conjunction but. A sentence beginning with and or but will tend to draw attention to itself and its transitional function. Writers should examine such sentences with two questions in mind: (1) would the sentence and paragraph function just as well without the initial conjunction? (2) should the sentence in question be connected to the previous sentence? If the initial conjunction still seems appropriate, use it. So there we have it, it is acceptable to begin a sentence with AND or BUT. But I’m still gonna pout about it tho. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/44 "2004-08-06T20:45:40Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > It is more awkward to begin a sentence with a D-V-N structure (dative-verb-nominative), especially since the conjugation is contigent on the secondarily placed noun. YMMV. I believe that good grammar is also contingent on good spelling. 🙂 If you read the early posts to this thread, the comma was used in the first sentence to indicate a pause (for the sake of cadence). I proposed that a dash or a period would be more appropriate, but that is apparently a matter of style. A sentence can begin with “And” or “But” if a pause is indicated greater than would be indicated by one compound sentence. But again this is a matter of style. ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/45 "2004-08-06T21:45:02Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > 1. " We are enjoying a summertime of relentless rain, and a few really nice days. With all of that rain comes terrific fruits". > > 2. “We are enjoying a summertime of relentless rain, and a few really nice days. With all of the rains comes terrific fruit”. > > 3. “We are enjoying a summertime of relentless rain, and a few really nice days. With all of that rains come terrific fruits”. > This is from a note I just wrote to an Uncle. ( Not Cecil. 😛 ). It’s just driving me bonkers. Which is correct? I used # 1 in the note, but none of these feel correct. ( Or, heh…none of this feels correct ) > > Cartooniverse The first sentence should not have a comma. You use a comma to separate two independent clauses. You could write “We are enjoying a summertime of relentless rain, and we are also enjoying a few really nice days.” In the sentence you wrote, “relentless rain and a few really nice days” describes the summertime, as part of a prepositional phrase. The confusion you have about the second sentence comes from the inversion of subject and verb. You could write “Terrific fruits come with all of that rain,” but as you’ve written it, the subject arrives at the end. By the way, “Of that rain” is a prepositional phrase describing “all”, so neither “rain” nor “rains” affects anything. The best way to write the sentence with the word “fruits” is “With all of that rain come terrific fruits.” You can say “rain” or “rains,” but you use rain in the previous sentence, so use “rain” in this sentence. By the way, if you use “rains”, you have to use “those,” not “that.” My professional experience tells me that, if you run into a sticky problem like this, don’t even bother to figure out the grammar. Instead, rewrite the sentence in a form that leaves no questions. You can avoid the whole problem by writing “We are enjoying a summertime of relentless rain and a few really nice days. With all of the rain comes terrific fruit.” “Fruit” can be used in a collective sense, as a reference to an unspecified number of objects. Since I am a relentless editor, my version would actually be “We are enjoying a summer of relentless rain mixed with a few really nice days. With all of this rain comes wonderful fruit.” ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/46 "2004-08-08T17:52:49Z")
Harrumph. Editors. You don’t like “terrific”, huh? It was good enough for **E.B. White** to use in _" Charlotte’s Web"_, but it is not good enough for you. Well, I declare. As for some of the later posts in here that remark that a comma is used not to create confusion at all but rather to impart a breath taken. As confessed earlier, i adore commas. I am aware that I abuse them and have taken to reading through emails before sending and removing commas. I write as I speak, and in my brain the use of a comma imparts a slight pause. ( I am aware that this is fairly ignorant, grammar-wise but I’m not an editor. I’m just a guy who wanted to know how badly he was injuring the English Language). The idea that someone cited a reference declaring that “There is a persistent belief that it is improper to begin a sentence with And, but this prohibition has been cheerfully ignored by standard authors from Anglo-Saxon times onwards. An initial And is a useful aid to writers as the narrative continues.” is fascinating to me. The tail wags the dog yet again. I wonder if this cite could be used to defent a schlarly work. Probably not, since my OP sentences were far from scholarly presentations, but were rather narrative statements. ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/47 "2004-08-08T20:22:08Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Harrumph. Editors. You don’t like “terrific”, huh? It was good enough for **E.B. White** to use in _" Charlotte’s Web"_, but it is not good enough for you. Well, I declare. :dubious: I’m not sure if you mean me, but hey, I didn’t say it wasn’t good enough, I just prefer “wonderful” to “terrific”. I’m prejudiced towards using words according to their meaning. That probably \is\ worth a harrumph. > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > As for some of the later posts in here that remark that a comma is used not to create confusion at all but rather to impart a breath taken. As confessed earlier, i adore commas. I am aware that I abuse them and have taken to reading through emails before sending and removing commas. I write as I speak, and in my brain the use of a comma imparts a slight pause. ( I am aware that this is fairly ignorant, grammar-wise but I’m not an editor. I’m just a guy who wanted to know how badly he was injuring the English Language). Not too badly, in my humble opinion. Your meaning was clear. I have seen writing in print that was vague, confusing, or even wrong because of poor grammar. Yours doesn’t even come \close\ to being in that category. > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > The idea that someone cited a reference declaring that “There is a persistent belief that it is improper to begin a sentence with And, but this prohibition has been cheerfully ignored by standard authors from Anglo-Saxon times onwards. An initial And is a useful aid to writers as the narrative continues.” is fascinating to me. The tail wags the dog yet again. The only language that I know of that is consistently written with correct grammar is Latin, and thankfully it’s no longer used. Every other language allows the author to play around a bit, and a good author takes advantage of it when possible. As a technical writer I strive for clarity, which means that I tend towards grammatical correctness and consistency in the extreme. I am, therefore, not the best person to ask about “good writing”. Technical writing, if good, is totally invisible, so that the information comes through clear as glass. In fact, that is the way I describe good technical writing: transparent as glass. Technical writers love to argue about grammar. Why not? We need to know it to do our jobs, and language fascinates us. > [@](#): > > I wonder if this cite could be used to defent a schlarly work. Probably not, since my OP sentences were far from scholarly presentations, but were rather narrative statements. Good ones, too. Relentless is a wonderful way to describe the rain \and\ your reaction to it. Perhaps “terrific” is a good way to describe the fruits as well. I imagine you sitting on by an open window on an evening cooled by the latest thunderstorm, the scent of a freshly bathed world wafting in, as you devour fresh strawberries the size of apples. Joe ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/48 "2004-08-10T11:31:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > I wonder if this cite could be used to defent a schlarly work. Probably not, since my OP sentences were far from scholarly presentations, but were rather narrative statements. > Good ones, too. Relentless is a wonderful way to describe the rain \and\ your reaction to it. Perhaps “terrific” is a good way to describe the fruits as well. I imagine you sitting on by an open window on an evening cooled by the latest thunderstorm, the scent of a freshly bathed world wafting in, as you devour fresh strawberries the size of apples. That was a very nice thing to say, thank you. In fact that’s pretty much what I imagined too. Note to self : Try to spell " defend" and “scholarly” properly when posting into your own thread. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/49 "2004-08-10T13:06:28Z")
> [@ReBusEniGma](#): > > Or, using a semi-colon partially satisfies your comma lust, brings more of a pause to the sentence, as well as finishes up the sentence with a bang- an exlamation mark. Kinda tells him you’re okay with the weather and love fruit. > "We are enjoying a summer of relentless rain and a few really nice days; bringing terrific fruit!” No, no, no! A semi-colon is only used to separate two complete thoughts; a comma is used when the thoughts are incomplete sentences. A comma, on the other hand, is primarily used to piss off pedants. Try “It’s been a rainy summer, but we have some terrific fruit to enjoy while we’re stuck inside!” ---
**Author:** ![ReBusEniGma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@ReBusEniGma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReBusEniGma)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527/50 "2004-08-11T04:13:41Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > No, no, no! A semi-colon is only used to separate two complete thoughts; a comma is used when the thoughts are incomplete sentences. A comma, on the other hand, is primarily used to piss off pedants. Try > > “It’s been a rainy summer, but we have some terrific fruit to enjoy while we’re stuck inside!” Well I’ll be gobsmacked. I have to stand corrected on that one **Jurph** ; Independent clauses are the most common use for semi-colons. But let us not forget the lowly conjunctive adverb; consequently, a comma is usually placed after it as well. Sheesh…what was [hic] _I_ thinking. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-grammatically-correct/257527.md?page=2)