# Which is the most accurate western TV/movie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 3, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867 "2022-02-03T19:41:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/41 "2022-02-05T03:37:12Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > **Cherokee Bill:** > No, it all comes down to who’s alive and who’s dead. Where did that quote come from? Cherokee Bill is known for being asked at his hanging if he had any last words. “I came here to die, not to make a speech.” ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/42 "2022-02-05T06:50:52Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Well I’ll be damned. You’re right. I’ve seen Unforgiven a few times, _really_ like it, but I too was irritated by Muny’s sudden superpowers in that scene. But I just carefully watched the scene and there are no cliched shoot-from-the-hip feats. Just as you said- takes his time (but quickly), takes careful aim. So for me it’s an even better film than before. To be fair to you, that calmness _is_ a kind of superpower. Also your willingness to imagine incredible gunmanship on behalf of Munny is exactly how the myths of the west were built and were the raw material that W.W. Beauchamp (the writer of “the duck of death”) was only to happy to embellish in his stories. So in a way, your initial memory of the movie only goes to strengthen one of its central themes. I kind of like that. I’m a huge fan of the movie, I think it is a masterpiece. I’ve watched it quite a few times and I still get something new from it each time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/43 "2022-02-05T06:56:08Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I know in many earlier times water was a dangerous libation That is not true. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/44 "2022-02-05T12:55:23Z")
_Unforgiven_ is attempting to keep it realistic. So Munny doesn’t have fancy shooting skills, but the bad guys are numerous and inept, like stormtroopers in _Star Wars_. Munny, and Han Solo, are thus made relatively superhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/45 "2022-02-05T14:08:51Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > So Munny doesn’t have fancy shooting skills, but the bad guys are numerous and inept Well “bad guys” in Unforgiven is something of a flexible terms of course but the “bad guys” are really just you and me, not cut out for murder, panicky mammals. The kid and Ned aren’t up to it, nor were the deputies, nor would we be. Little Bill, Munny and English Bob were of a very different nature altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/46 "2022-02-05T14:26:21Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > but the bad guys are numerous and inept, I hate to break it to you, but Munny and Ned _were_ the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/47 "2022-02-05T14:38:35Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but Munny and Ned _were_ the bad guys. Not from the viewpoint of the whores. They were avengers. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/49 "2022-02-05T15:07:13Z")
_McCabe and Mrs. Miller_ gets credit for the same realism that would later be given to _Deadwood._ One point is the overturning of the face-to-face shootout on Main Street at high noon. Instead they scramble around trying to shoot each other in the back. Although the revisionist Western was hailed as part of the 1960’s “tell it like it is” aesthetic, back in 1958 _The Law and Jake Wade_ had Robert Taylor and Richard Widmark stepping out into Main Street, then immediately ducking behind buildings to stalk each other. Too many WWII combat vets in the audience to play it otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/50 "2022-02-05T15:08:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@DPRK](#): > > > > **Cherokee Bill:** > > No, it all comes down to who’s alive and who’s dead. > > Where did that quote come from? > Cherokee Bill is known for being asked at his hanging if he had any last words. > “I came here to die, not to make a speech.” It is a quote from _The Harder They Fall_, a deliberately accurate western in the sense _Inglorious Basterds_ was an accurate war movie. Another “Cherokee Bill” quote from the same scene: > [@](#): > > **Beckwourth:** > I hear you’re so fast that your opponents ain’t got time to draw, before you put two in their back. > > **Bill:** > Nah, that ain’t me. I’m the Cherokee Bill that shoots men in the mouth that talk too much. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/51 "2022-02-05T16:26:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, not quite. Stetson started making hats after the Civil war. Before that, you had mostly shapeless wide brimmed wool felt hats, sometimes straw. Not bowlers, despite the very wrong and poorly researched article. Not sure what poorly researched article you’re referring to, but bowlers were a very popular hat in the old West, especially in town. Butch Cassidy and the Wild Bunch: [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_Cassidy%27s_Wild_Bunch#/media/File:Wildbunchlarge.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_Cassidy%27s_Wild_Bunch#/media/File:Wildbunchlarge.jpg) ETA: not sure why the photo isn’t showing, but click the little box and you’ll see it ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/52 "2022-02-05T16:32:05Z")
Ironic that bowlers replaced top hats, and were worn by cowboys, since top hats were developed to absorb some of the shock when falling off your horse. Because of their association with the young, affluent and active fox-hunting crowd, top hats supplanted stodgy tricorns around the same time the waltz replaced the minuet. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/53 "2022-02-05T16:36:43Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Ironic that bowlers replaced top hats, In one of the very few pictures of Billy the Kid, he appears to be wearing a top hat, so maybe he was wise to the noggin protection factor: > **[Billy the Kid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_the_Kid#/media/File:Billy_the_Kid_corrected.jpg)** > > Henry McCarty (September 17 or November 23, 1859 – July 14, 1881), alias William H. Bonney, better known as Billy the Kid, was an American outlaw and gunfighter of the Old West who was linked to nine murders: four for which he was solely responsible, and five in which he may have played a role alongside others. He is also noted for his involvement in New Mexico's Lincoln County War. > McCarty was orphaned at the age of 15. His first arrest was for stealing food at the age of 16 in 1875. Ten da... (Again, click little square to view. I swear I’ve successfully linked to Wikipedia pics before; can’t seem to do it on my iPad) ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/54 "2022-02-05T16:42:35Z")
[Playing cards in a top hat](https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/11/20/rare-photo-of-billy-the-kid-expected-to-sell-for-1m-at-auction/amp/) [Playing croquet in a top hat](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/19/man-who-discovered-rare-billy-the-kid-photo-the-hunt-is-a-really-grand-thing) Little Irish slum kid wanting to be a swell. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/55 "2022-02-05T16:45:52Z")
I had never seen that first pic of Billy the Kid playing cards. Very cool link, thanks! The second link doesn’t seem to be working. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/56 "2022-02-05T16:50:52Z")
[Croquet photo](https://fineartamerica.com/featured/billy-the-kid-playing-croquet-in-new-mexico-1878-american-school.html?product=tapestry) Also shown: cardigan sweater! ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/57 "2022-02-05T17:04:03Z")
Thanks! I have seen that one. Odd hat there on Billy the Kid- it kind of looks like a cross between a bowler and a top hat. The hat on the other guy is probably a good example of the shapeless wide-brimmed hat that cowboys and ranch hands would wear before the Stetson became popular. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/58 "2022-02-05T17:32:42Z")
Just now I’m surfing Westerns on cable (as is one’s weekend wont), and a 1962 episode of _Rawhide_ has Clint and the boys lined up at gun point by the marshal of Abilene… to be vaccinated for smallpox. There’s a meme in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/59 "2022-02-05T17:35:46Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > I wonder how they became the default doors for saloons. All the tv shows avoided showing them in winter. Did Gunsmoke ever show the Longbranch with regular wintertime doors? I don’t know if the Long Branch had them, but most saloons had regular full-length doors that could be closed and locked. When the bar was open, they would lay against the front on either side of the doorway, but could be closed against inclement weather and locked if the bar was closed. > **[How Did Saloons in the Old West Lock Their Doors at Night?](https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/78758/how-did-saloons-old-west-lock-their-doors-night)** > > What stopped no-good varmints from crawling underneath the doors? ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/60 "2022-02-05T19:01:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > To be fair to you, that calmness _is_ a kind of superpower. Also your willingness to imagine incredible gunmanship on behalf of Munny is exactly how the myths of the west were built and were the raw material that W.W. Beauchamp (the writer of “the duck of death”) was only to happy to embellish in his stories. > > So in a way, your initial memory of the movie only goes to strengthen one of its central themes. I kind of like that. > > I’m a huge fan of the movie, I think it is a masterpiece. Those are very interesting points, and I agree. Funny thing is, I didn’t _want_ to imagine Munny’s incredible gunmanship- in fact it yanked me out of the movie and was the only aspect I didn’t like. So my next viewing will be even better, and I’d already felt that it’s a masterpiece, Eastwood’s best film by far. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867/61 "2022-02-05T19:03:57Z")
I wonder how accurate [Cimarron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimarron_(1931_film)) was considering it was made only 24 years after Oklahoma became a state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-accurate-western-tv-movie/958867.md?page=4)