# Which is the most evil episode in British history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444 "2010-09-29T05:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/1 "2010-09-29T05:02:04Z")
The Spanish Inquisition? I almost expect it. Hitler? Yeah, _he_ hasn’t been discussed on this board already :rolleyes: Stalin? Some say he has been POTUS for the last 2 years, and it is all we are going to hear until 11/2… America sucks? YAWN!! But one category in which I am not up to speed is the single most evil episode in British history. I might proffer an example, but considering I am ceaselessly amazed at the depth of knowledge displayed here on the 'dope I dare not, lest I appear (more) foolish. No! What say ye? I didn’t think this belonged in IMHO since ‘most evil’ is not ultimately a matter of opinion. Hard to pin down? Sure. But we have a variety of developed religious and legal systems, blah blah… Sounds like a debate topic to me. I didn’t think this belonged in the Pit since my intent is essentially academic. What\* really is\* the single most evil episode in British history? The one that can defeat its contenders in a debate context? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/2 "2010-09-29T05:15:16Z")
I’m not expert on British history, but the extermination of the Tasmanians was pretty evil. They were systematically hunted down until none were left; isolated for 10,000 years from the rest of humanity only to be obliterated once found by people who made tobacco pouches out of their skin. Very Nazi-like, except more successful. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/3 "2010-09-29T05:25:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m not expert on British history, but the extermination of the Tasmanians was pretty evil. They were systematically hunted down until none were left; isolated for 10,000 years from the rest of humanity only to be obliterated once found by people who made tobacco pouches out of their skin. Very Nazi-like, except more successful. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/4 "2010-09-29T05:40:18Z")
I’d go with the whole colonial period from 1583 until 1981. During this period the British massacred people wholesale, robbed their lands, and fomented the turmoil that lasts to this day across Africa and Asia. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/5 "2010-09-29T05:43:42Z")
If we’re not going to get too abstract like saying British Imperialism in general, I think you’ll have a hard time beating Cromwell’s campaigns in Ireland: [Cromwellian conquest of Ireland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland) Nobody’s quite sure exactly how many Irish people Cromwell slaughtered or had shipped to the Caribbean as virtual-slaves, but most credible estimates are in the range of a half million, at a time when Ireland’s population was only about 1.5 Million. Some say only custom prevents us from calling it a genocide. ETA: I typed that before tripolar posted-- I don’t necessarilly disagree with the British Imperialism argument myself. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/6 "2010-09-29T05:54:03Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > ETA: I typed that before tripolar posted-- I don’t necessarilly disagree with the British Imperialism argument myself. It seems a bit extended to qualify as a “single episode”, though. More of a long running series. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/7 "2010-09-29T06:06:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@GreasyJack](#): > > > > ETA: I typed that before tripolar posted-- I don’t necessarilly disagree with the British Imperialism argument myself. > > It seems a bit extended to qualify as a “single episode”, though. More of a long running series. 😃 Ireland was the first British colony. The Provisional IRA finally accepted peace with England 5 years ago. The colonization of Ireland was one very long episode, during which the series of other colonial episodes occured. Even though the colonial status has ended, some of those episodes are ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/8 "2010-09-29T06:11:17Z")
But is the colonization of Ireland the most evil episode? Prove it! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/9 "2010-09-29T06:13:10Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > But is the colonization of Ireland the most evil episode? Prove it! _\_ ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/10 "2010-09-29T06:22:04Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > But is the colonization of Ireland the most evil episode? Prove it! I still contend it is all one epidode. I addressed the part about it being extended. The evil part, besides the deaths of 1 million people during the potato famine, was that it was the proof of concept for the remainder of British Colonialism, and the millions more that died as a result. Evil meter breaks. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/11 "2010-09-29T06:30:40Z")
Given that we can’t quantify evil, and we can’t agree on what an “episode” is, I reckon we’re floundering. Plus, the OP specifies an episode in _British_ history. Sure, the age of imperialism was thoroughly nasty, and the British were involved in it in quite a big way, but it isn’t a distinctively British phenomenon in the way that the Holocaust, say, was distinctively German. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/12 "2010-09-29T06:39:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > But is the colonization of Ireland the most evil episode? Prove it! > > I still contend it is all one epidode. I addressed the part about it being extended. The evil part, besides the deaths of 1 million people during the potato famine, was that it was the proof of concept for the remainder of British Colonialism, and the millions more that died as a result. > > Evil meter breaks. Allrighty then! I shall enter the Colonization of Ireland as a contestant for the most evil episode in British history! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/13 "2010-09-29T06:48:50Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Given that we can’t quantify evil, and we can’t agree on what an “episode” is, I reckon we’re floundering. > > Plus, the OP specifies an episode in _British_ history. Sure, the age of imperialism was thoroughly nasty, and the British were involved in it in quite a big way, but it isn’t a distinctively British phenomenon in the way that the Holocaust, say, was distinctively German. Well I guess we can’t quantify evil now that I’ve broken the evil meter (sorry Der Trihs, I know you worked hard on that). Ok, so if we have to break it up into localized chunks, I’ll go with the Potato Famine. The modern estimates are about 1 million dead of starvation and disease. It all happened right in England’s back yard. Not only did the British cause the problem, and fail to aid the sick and starving, they twisted the knife as they stabbed. From the [Wikipedia Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Food_exports_to_England): > [@](#): > > Cecil Woodham-Smith, an authority on the Irish Famine, wrote in The Great Hunger; Ireland 1845–1849 that no issue has provoked so much anger and embittered relations between England and Ireland as “the indisputable fact that huge quantities of food were exported from Ireland to England throughout the period when the people of Ireland were dying of starvation.” Ireland remained a net exporter of food throughout most of the five-year famine. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/14 "2010-09-29T07:54:51Z")
For single episodes, it doesn’t get much worse than some of the Indian massacres of [unarmed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_Massacre)[people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_bazaar_massacre). ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/15 "2010-09-29T08:59:39Z")
This doesn’t have the greatest body count, but from a sheer nastiness point of view certainly counts towards evil acts here. Religious persecution by Elizabeth I and Mary. [QUOTE=wikipedia] More than 300 Roman Catholics were put to death by English governments between 1535 and 1681 for treason, thus for secular than religious offenses. In 1570, Pope Pius V had issued the bull Regnans in Excelsis, which absolved Catholics from their obligations to the government. This dramatically worsened the situation of the Catholics in England. English governments continued to fear Popish Plot. An English act of government from the year 1585 declared that the purpose of Jesuit missionaries who had come to Britain was “to stir up and move sedition, rebellion and open hostility”. Consequently Jesuit priests like Saint John Ogilvie were hanged. This somehow contrasts with the image of the Elizabethan era as the time of William Shakespeare, but compared to the antecedent Marian Persecutions there is an important difference to consider. Mary I had been motivated by a religious zeal to purge heresy from her land, and during her short reign from 1553 to 1558 about 290 Protestants had been burned at the stake for heresy, whereas Elizabeth I of England “acted out of fear for the security of her realm.”[ [/QUOTE] Although possibly necessary to win the war (WWII) firebombing Dresden probably wasn’t the nicest thing we’ve done either. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/16 "2010-09-29T09:19:51Z")
Don’t forget that [we invented concentration camps](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War). The Irish famine history is considerably more complex than as portrayed above. True, the people were starving while food was being exported, but part of that was due to the free market: the landowners (some of whom were Irish), were they to have fed the dying, would have been ruined, creating an economic disaster that could possibly have exacerbated the situation even more. (One reason that “socialist” policies should have been imposed at the time, IMO. The responsibility for which inaction lay at the hands of the British parliament, for sure, though there were some strident and very vocal Brits who attempted to push such aid measures through, but were defeated.) Though the clearances of tenant farmers didn’t help much. Secondly there was a large amount of panic caused by _perceived_ starvation, leading to the abandonment of still-productive settlements. Anyway, we were absolutely dreadful, but I believe it was criminal negligence rather than deliberate genocide. For sheer evil, I don’t think you can beat the extermination of the Tasmanian aboriginals. Seriously nasty. ---
**Author:** ![ramel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ramel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ramel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/17 "2010-09-29T09:43:39Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Don’t forget that [we invented concentration camps](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War). > **[Concentration camp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp)** > > A concentration camp is a prison or other facility used for the internment of political prisoners or politically targeted demographics, such as members of national or ethnic minority groups, on the grounds of national security, or for exploitation or punishment. > Prominent examples of historic concentration camps include the British confinement of non-combatants during the Second Boer War, the mass internment of Japanese-Americans by the US during the Second World War, the Nazi concentration cam... > [@](#): > > The earliest of these camps may have been those set up in the United States for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s; however, the term originated in the reconcentrados (reconcentration camps) set up by the Spanish military set up in Cuba during the Ten Years’ War (1868–1878) and by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).[5]. The English term “concentration camp” grew in prominence during the Second Boer War (1899–1902), when they were operated by the British in South Africa.[5][6] ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/18 "2010-09-29T09:49:30Z")
Oh well, I guess we invented the word in our own language. Still, ghastly business. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/19 "2010-09-29T12:08:21Z")
4 September 2004 The first episode of X Factor is shown on British TV. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444/20 "2010-09-29T12:13:39Z")
You’d get a strong argument from some quarters that the bombing of [Dresden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II)and [Hamburg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg)during WW2 count as “evil” episodes. This tends to polarise opinion in the UK - many claim that it was a justified tactic of war, others that it was pure civilian slaughter - but objectively it led to the death of 25,000 people (Dresden) and 50,000 people (Hamburg) in the space of a couple of days. Empire killed more people as a whole, as did the Religious Terrors of Cromwell etc, but as discrete acts these two events arguably killed more people than anything before. The fact it was during a war clouds things slightly, but you could argue that the Indian mutinies, or Irish supression, were also part of an ongoing conflict. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-most-evil-episode-in-british-history/555444.md?page=2)