Which is the most evil episode in British history?

Nah. If I didn’t have such a great girlfriend, I’d be a much better (or at least more frequent) participant here.

As for that other thread, do look again where it goes and what is being pitted. Really it is an exercise in Ch. 36 of Tao Te Ching:

And so on.

You may never care much for me due to my recent bout with anti-Brit bias, but if you keep watching you will see that I am at least honest.

The two threads are in fact connected, though not in the way you suggest. I thought I’d do better to direct any anti-Brit bias I may retain against an appropriate target: the crew responsible for the most evil episode in British history. They should be dated, dead, and (hopefully) bear little resemblance to the contemporary crop.

My interest is indeed academic, though I admit that may not be obvious. Recent events have alerted me to the fact that I do not always handle well the apprehension of enormous acts of evil/injustice. This simply will not do, especially considering that, this year especially, I am increasingly attracted to the notion that injustice should be considered a fundamental stratum of reality. Or, in the context of a preface to Kant’s Critique of Practical Reason:

More and more my feeling is that Injustice is one of the absolute conditions of all contingent conditions. This certainly seems true when considered in the light of British history. Would Britain/British culture exist today at all if not for its history of evil? Sure, some of its excesses proved counter-productive. But without viewing the world as a place occupied by sub-humans to be destroyed so their resources could be plundered, how could England have paid for its wars? Surely it would have gone broke, or turned its evil against itself and been weakened until it were destroyed by some rival.

The error would be to view this as a uniquely British phenomenon- it’s not. More and more I am coming to view injustice as, again, a/the substratum of reality. I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t stand up as the ultimate metaphysical ground of all things mind you, just that it seems capable of gaining a lot more mileage than most other things you might put in its place. I am especially disposed to this opinion since the verdict in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, which essentially granted personhood to corporations and declared their expenditures- to political campaigns in particular- to be ‘speech’ which cannot be infringed upon or limited. I fear that America is moving inexorably toward a plutocratic or oligarchic tyranny, and that therefore the evils to come will make evils past seem to be merely a prelude to Act I. There is the vain hope that casting light on history may prevent us from repeating it; yet again, I fear the new evil will be novel beyond imagining, and devastating beyond historical limits. So on an individual level then, I simply must not react to gross injustice in the way I have already this year if I am to continue to function at all. And so an academic encyclopedia of evil is my best defense, so that I may remain unfazed by the new evils which I fear are soon to be unleashed.

But that’s for another thread.

If people want to start another thread debating ‘the most evil nation’, go for it, I’m there. But for now British evil is convenient for me, so what else have those limey bastards inflicted on the world?

If we go by the holocaust scale, which 6 - 12 million dead = 1 holocaust then I believe that the British empire topped that several times with their actions in India.

There is much evidence to suggest that approx 35 million people died between 1800- 1900 people through man made famine’s in India. The Wiki leak has a handy chart to compare famines before and after British rule. They were also nice enough to take posed pictures.

The British caused famine’s included continued exports while people were starving, forced change of land use, famine as a weapon against uprisings, and a weird attitude of social darwinism which led to concentration camps in all but name.

During one 25 year period it’s suggested that close to 25 million people died which could be a higher yearly average then Nazi Germany managed.

An atrocity paralleled in the annals of infamy only by the cancellation of Monty Python.

You don’t say.

I find it perplexing that it has taken you presumably (at least) a couple of decades and an apparent education to come to this conclusion.

Either that or you’re completely bonkers.

No no. My anti-Brit phase is something that only cropped up this year, and that I intend to get over. Before then they were just another empire to me.

Epic fail, sorry.

's OK, sorry I lost my cool. I mustn’t take things so personally.

I don’t think you can speak of famine and the Nazi holocaust in quite the same vein, though:

Accuse the British of mismanagement if you like - and even of arrogant, ignorant meddling in the affairs of another country in the idiotic belief that our ways were better - but when you’re intent on genocide it’s not usual to spend buckets of money trying to save lives.

Meanwhile, from here:

Not exactly the Warsaw Ghetto, then.

I won’t deny it’s debatable but Lord Lytton wasn’t exactly eager to help -

I’m having a hard time finding online cites but there is a lot of writing that demonstrates the curious form of social Darwinism that they practiced and some rather revealing letters suggesting that the famines actually served a purpose.

On the other hand it was popular pressure from the British public that has been credited with forcing the East India Company and the Vice-Roy into doing anything to alleviating suffering.

Further I think that 1% number is essentially meaningless without details - do they mean thats what they extracted directly in taxes to the UK? Are they including the 40% of Indian GDP they spent on the military within India (your own cite) this army was sent all over the world. What about all the Indian industries they destroyed instead making the populace dependent on British made imports? Do any of those count as taking Indian wealth?

I think there were segments of British society that acted admirably, but in other respects they were as horrific as anything the Nazi’s did.

In fact I’m going to start a thread on it :slight_smile:

Indian GDP, albeit slowly, rose during the British Raj.

If we merely robbed the Indians, then the Subcontinent would of been as economically important as Latin America was after the Spanish had plundered it, which was not very much.

Indian taxes, for the most part, paid for the infrastructure and administration of the Raj, and by the time it received independence, had a surplus of revenue in its central Bank.

Damn those foreigners, taking our concentration camps …

And then there are the people that lived in the cities that the Nazis did the same thing to. First. They don’t seem to have such an issue (and yes I have met plenty of them - I grew up in a small town out side Coventry. My father is from Sheffield and it is well known that in our family that his father had a full on breakdown after failing to find his neighbour’s baby in the rubble of their bombed out home. It cried and cried but then, after a while, there was no more crying.). In fact I’d say they simply say back, ‘they deserved it’.

I can honestly say I have never met a Jew in the UK. I lived there for twenty five years and still go back regularly. Of course I have been around north London and seen the homes of people celebrating hanakakahowveeryouspellit. Mainly when trying to find the shopping centre in the area(Bluewater?). But yeah, despite us being on “the right side” in WW2 there is something very fishy going on there.

I am being entirely serious, all other races and religions under the sun, but not any Jews. Simon Amstall’s recent show “grandma’s house” got bigged up by the Jewish press for showing the homelife of a British Jew and rightly so, I found it both interesting and hilarious. It helps that I love Amstall. Gay and Jewish. Must have been fun at school.

Very interesting thread. I made a very serious mistake when I was fourteen, I dropped History class. The ‘benefits’ of the private school system being that they were not hampered by the national curriculum. I’ve spent my post-academia life reading to catch up and there is certainly stuff here for me to bury my teeth in to.

I don’t get this. They’re a tiny proportion of the British population, but I know many British Jews - even growing up in rural Oxfordshire. A good friend of mine at school was Jewish, my first girlfriend was an au pair for a Jewish family in a nearby village, and they attended a synagogue in the next town. One of my friends at college was a London Jew and I used to live next to the main synagogue in Oxford and used to see dozens of families attending on Shabbat. And there’s a relatively high concentration of prominent Jews in the British media. Perhaps the starting point for population size is low because of the ancient expulsion, but Jews definitely part of British life.

Just sharing my experience. I grew up in Kenilworth, Warwickshire and I honestly didn’t lie. I lived for just over two years in London and I never knowingly met a Jew.

Loads of Muslims and Hindus though.

Sorry, thinking really hard I can now remember one guy (the sysadmin at my first job) that self identified as half-Rusian, half-Israeli. That’s the closest I can come up with.

Little addition:

Oh and yes I am aware that there are several high profile Jews in the media. Unforunately I don’t work in the media and have never met these people. I didn’t deny that there were any Jews, just that the population is so small that within the UK they seemed to have completely avoided me.

No, me neither. Perhaps it’s a feature of geography? Certainly if you take a rough band across the country from Hull to Liverpool there are a number of pockets of relatively high Jewish populations along that wide line. I’d always heard this as a consequence of the migration processes out of Eastern Europe and into the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries, although that seems like a bit too neat an explanation to me. To counter anecdote with anecdote, I know more Jews than Muslims, for instance.

It might also be a feature of our (generally speaking) lack of real interest in religion in many areas of the UK. It’s not one of the things that comes up in conversation as a self-identifying trait, for most people, in my experience.

Well, if the Nazis did it too, I guess it makes it all right, then.