# Which is the stronger case for the origin of the Celts? The Danube region or Iberian peninsula? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 7, 2018, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933 "2018-09-07T08:16:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/21 "2018-09-09T09:26:39Z")
Looking over the Celtic gods, I note that [Taranis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranis) seems pretty similar to Eastern European thunder gods who carry a club/mallet. The Celts also believed in the [sacred nature of trees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_sacred_trees), which we see throughout Asia. > **[Perun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun)** > > In Slavic mythology, Perun (Cyrillic: Перýн) is the highest god of the pantheon and the god of sky, thunder, lightning, storms, rain, law, war, fertility and oak trees. His other attributes were fire, mountains, wind, iris, eagle, firmament (in Indo-European languages, this was joined with the notion of the sky of stone), horses and carts, and weapons (hammer, axe (Axe of Perun), and arrow). He was first associated with weapons made of stone and later with those of metal. > Of all historic records... > **[Perkwunos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkwunos)** > > Perkwunos (Proto-Indo-European: \*perkwunos, 'the Striker' or 'the Lord of Oaks') is the reconstructed name of the weather god in Proto-Indo-European mythology. The deity was connected with fructifying rains, and his name was probably invoked in times of drought. In a widespread Indo-European myth, the thunder-deity fights a multi-headed water-serpent during an epic battle in order to release torrents of water that had previously been pent up. The name of his weapon, \*meld-n-, which denoted both "... > **[Ukko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukko)** > > Ukko (Finnish: \[ˈukːo\]), Äijä \[ˈæi̯jæ\] or Äijö \[ˈæi̯jø\] (Finnish for 'male grandparent', 'grandfather', 'old man'), parallel to Uku in Estonian mythology, is the god of the sky, weather, harvest and thunder in Finnish mythology. > Ukkonen, the Finnish word for thunder, is the diminutive form of the name Ukko.\[note 1\]\[note 2\] Unto Salo \[fi\] believes that Ilmari, another Finnic sky god, is the origin of Ukko, but that as Ukko Ilmari experienced very significant, although far from total, influence fr... [Raijin - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raijin) (?) > **[Slavic paganism | Cosmology, iconography, temples and rites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_paganism#Cosmology,_iconography,_temples_and_rites)** > > The cosmology of ancient Slavic religion, which is preserved in contemporary Slavic folk religion, is visualised as a three-tiered vertical structure, or "world tree", as common in other religions. At the top there is the heavenly plane, symbolised by birds, the sun and the moon; the middle plane is that of earthly humanity, symbolised by bees and men; at the bottom of the structure there is the netherworld, symbolised by snakes and beavers, and by the chthonic god Veles. The Zbruch Idol (which w... [http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tengriism#Cosmology](http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tengriism#Cosmology) > **[Yorishiro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorishiro)** > > A yorishiro (依り代/依代/憑り代/憑代) in Shinto terminology is an object capable of attracting spirits called kami, thus giving them a physical space to occupy during religious ceremonies. Yorishiro are used during ceremonies to call the kami for worship. The word itself literally means "approach substitute". Once a yorishiro actually houses a kami, it is called a shintai. Ropes called shimenawa decorated with paper streamers called shide often surround yorishiro to make their sacredness manifest. Yorishir... I’ll vote East - Danube - though I admit that I don’t know anything about Northwestern African gods ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/22 "2018-09-09T10:08:04Z")
There are _very_ strong similarities between the old Irish Druid religion and the ancient Hindu religion. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/23 "2018-09-09T13:18:47Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > I’ve sometimes thought of asking on GQ but never got round to it, which are the ‘Pre-Celtic’ river names in Britain? It’s sometimes tossed around as a factoid that British river names are pre-Celtic, but the common ones like Avon and Dee seem to be Celtic. There are very few in Ireland. The name of the river Liffey (Life) may be pre-Celtic. Here is what we know about the language of the Bronze Age inhabitants of Ireland: ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/24 "2018-09-09T16:43:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > How is the “split of (_the earliest_) Italo-Celtic from the rest of PIE” dated by evidence regarding the split of Italic and Celtic from _late_ Italo-Celtic? The phase of a common Italo-Celtic had to have existed, but I think it unlikely to have persisted for thousands of years. A few hundred is more likely. So, moving back from the Italo-Celtic split to the Western Indo-European split, that would put it around 1500 BC, give or take a few hundred years. 2000 BC would not surprise me, but 3500 BC is way too early. If you’re going to argue based on a timeline, the natural rebuttal to that argument is going to be the validity of the timeline. Since we don’t have any direct evidence before the eighth century BC, at which point the language families had already diverged, it’s all a weak argument from there, in either direction, but 3500 BC to 750 BC is the same distance from 750 BC to 2000, i.e. from the earliest Lepontic inscription to Modern Irish. Not that Modern Irish descends from Lepontic, but the point is that’s the entire lifespan of the Celtic languages, and you’re positing an equally long phase in Italo-Celtic, which seems implausible. If you say the same for Western Indo-European, that would put the breakup of Proto-Indo-European at 6250 BC. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/25 "2018-09-09T17:30:03Z")
**Dr. Drake** ’s dates are much too recent. You need to come up with a chronology that fits the whole I-E tree. Italo-Celtic certainly separated from Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian well before those latter two separated from each other, so if Italo-Celtic split off 2000 BC, when did Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian separate from each other? Indo-Iranian unity is usually estimated as at least several centuries. When did Indo-Aryan and Iranian split in **Dr. Drake** ’s model? Well _after_ Sanskrit is attested, it would seem. 🙂 I think Ringe’s team is about as credible as any. [On page 29 of this slide-show](https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/conference/09_SwadeshCentenary/pdf/Slides/WarnowEtAlSlides.pdf) Italo-Celtic is shown splitting off at 3200 BC; Italic and Celtic separate from each other about 2600 BC. _ **There is much uncertainty of course** _ and Ringe himself (who focuses on linguistic evidence rather than archaeological clues) avoids dating altogether. However I think the path lengths in the diagrams (pages 2, 39) of the link are intended as proportional to _quantitative_ linguistic change. Are Ringe’s team and I wrong? **Dr. Drake** , can you cite a credible historical linguist advocating dates anywhere near yours? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/26 "2018-09-09T19:23:32Z")
I am only querying your 3500 BC date. I proposed ca. 1500 BC, but said I wouldn’t be surprised at 2000 BC. That’s based on moving backward from the known, not reconstructing forward. Ringe’s group’s date for Proto-Celtic looks to be about 2600 BC, which is still nearly 1000 years out from the 3500 BC date you gave. Going with their chart, 3500 BC is the split with Tocharian. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/27 "2018-09-09T19:29:53Z")
And no, I can’t cite a credible historical linguist with dates. The scholarship I am familiar with has more to do with developments within the Celtic languages, and is more concerned with relative chronology than absolute. Ringe et al. may well be right, but it surprises me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/28 "2018-09-09T19:41:53Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Already in 700 BC, with the earliest Italic and Celtic inscriptions, they are extremely close. That’s fascinating. Can you link to some, or link to some paper that documents this? I’m not doubting you. I’d really love to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/29 "2018-09-09T19:48:47Z")
Most of the texts are very short, but accessible at [Lexicon Leponticum](https://www.univie.ac.at/lexlep/wiki/Main_Page) and in particular [https://www.univie.ac.at/lexlep/wiki/Morphology](https://www.univie.ac.at/lexlep/wiki/Morphology) (can’t seem to link in Chrome). Bear in mind that my “extremely close” is “in comparison with things that are not Italo-Celtic.” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/30 "2018-09-09T20:09:49Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I am only querying your 3500 BC date. I proposed ca. 1500 BC, but said I wouldn’t be surprised at 2000 BC. That’s based on moving backward from the known, not reconstructing forward. Ringe’s group’s date for Proto-Celtic looks to be about 2600 BC, which is still nearly 1000 years out from the 3500 BC date you gave. Going with their chart, 3500 BC is the split with Tocharian. 😕 😕 In my earlier reply to your misconception I almost asked if you were conflating the split of Ital-Celtic from the rest of PIE with the split of Celtic and Italic from each other. I didn’t for fear it would seem condescending. Now you’re backtracking on your own earlier claim — that doesn’t bother me — \* … and misquoting me\*! _That does_ annoy me. 🙂 I’ve highlighted and enlarged the relevant sentence. Please tell me what you think it means. > [@septimus](#): > > … **The split of Italo-Celtic from the rest of PIE can be dated with confidence to about 3500 BC.** Thanks in advance. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/31 "2018-09-09T20:19:00Z")
Anticipating a further quibble about the 300-year difference between Tarnow’s estimate and my own (although “error bars” are bigger), let me mention that a simple explanation may resolve even that quibble. I use geographical separation for dates — such dates are more readily inferred from archaeological evidence. It may take a few centuries for a split to produce different languages. > [@septimus](#): > > TL;DR: There is circumstantial reason to infer that many or most of the “Bell Beaker people” spoke a language in the Italo-Celtic family. Note the “Italo-Celtic” rather than “Celtic.” Do you just pound the keyboard without trying to understand what you respond to?? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/32 "2018-09-10T14:57:21Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > There are _very_ strong similarities between the old Irish Druid religion and the ancient Hindu religion. :eek: I thought all the old religions of Indo-European cultures were related. So similarities were simply inherited from the root religion. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/33 "2018-09-10T15:08:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Do you just pound the keyboard without trying to understand what you respond to?? **Moderator Note** Dial back the snark. No warning issued, but lets’ remain civil. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/34 "2018-09-10T16:51:59Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I thought all the old religions of Indo-European cultures were related. So similarities were simply inherited from the root religion. It’s no surprise that Hindu’s ancient religious texts preserve the PIE religion best, so comparing that with Celtic Druidism was natural given the thread topic. Yet I wonder if Druidism has preserved some PIE religion features better than some other I-E religions. (This mightn’t be surprising: the Greeks borrowed Aphrodite from the Phoenicians; some of the Roman gods were Etruscan, and so on.) Mallory’s old book lists several, almost uncanny similarities between ancient Hinduism and, specifically, Irish Druidism, one of which I mentioned here two years ago: > [@What do we know about pre-Christian religious rites?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-know-about-pre-christian-religious-rites/735680/12): > > There were very strong similarities between the early religious rituals of the Hindu Brahmin and the Old Irish Druids. This [article is about new Irish Kings bathing with a sacrificed horse](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G8ZK_PicYkwJ:openjournals.library.usyd.edu.au/index.php/SSR/article/download/660/640+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk) and compares it with [the traditional Vedic Hindu royal inauguration.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha) And there are other similarities between ancient Indic and Irish religions; as well as relationships to Greek, Roman and Norse religions. > > This connection seems odd — Ireland is a long distance from India; the Irish and Indic languages separated about 5500 years ago; the two populations have different Y-chromosome haplogroups. I think these religious parallels may suggest the great dominance of the early Indo-European culture. If you click the link to post-in-thread you will see that I immediately got two responses deprecating the thesis (“sacrificing animals … is common to a lot of religions”). I followed up with more evidence: > [@What do we know about pre-Christian religious rites?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-know-about-pre-christian-religious-rites/735680/16): > > Do either of you have a cite for this? I’m certainly not expert on this topic but I’ve done a fair amount of reading and thought there was a scholarly consensus for strong parallels among Indo-European religions. > > Of course the details vary. In the ancient Irish royal anointment, [the King fornicates with a sacrificial white mare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_sacrifice). In the ancient Hindu ritual it is the Queen who fornicates with a white stallion. > > The royal Celtic name Epomeduos (\< ek’wo-medhu = “horse + mead”) reflects the ceremony, mead being the fermented honey imbibed during the ritual. Was it coincidental parallel development that the Vedic ritual is called _Ashvamedha_ (अश्वमेध), cognate with the Irish name (although AFAIK no fermented honey is involved in the Vedic ritual)? > > There are other specific parallels between the functions and rituals of Druids and ancient Brahmins, down to the ceremonial clothing color (white — also in each society the warrior caste wore red). … but, unsurprisingly, the equation _Epomeduos = Ashvamedha_ was apparently devoid of merit since no support or retraction followed in that thread. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Of more direct interest to the thread topic would be similarities between ancient Celtic and Italic religions. AFAICT this does not quickly lead to obvious evidence for Italo-Celtic recency. Deity names cognate between Roman and Welsh or Irish include mostly names common to several I-E branches. A possible exception which [one source considers to be a cognate pair](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.457.1897&rep=rep1&type=pdf) (but many/most would reject) is “Roman Mars; Irish Morrighan.” Interestingly, Morrighan is a Goddess of War, contrasting with the male Mars. Celtic Andrasta/Andarta was also a Celtic Goddess of War (or Strength) the above source considers cognate to Hindu’s male Indra. > [@Boudica](#): > > Let us, therefore, go against [the Romans], trusting boldly to good fortune. Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves. [When Boudica had finished speaking, she employed a species of divination, letting a hare escape from the fold of her dress; and since it ran on what they considered the auspicious side, the whole multitude shouted with pleasure, and Boudica, raising her hand toward heaven, said:] **I thank you, Andraste** , and call upon you as woman speaking to woman … I beg you for victory and preservation of liberty. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/35 "2018-09-10T17:05:05Z")
And I certainly do apologize for losing my temper and becoming snarky. My offense of incivility was clearly hundreds or thousands of times graver than any offence I might have perceived against me. My perverse need to have my statements acknowledged (and wrong-headed criticism retracted) is something that has plagued me most of my life. I wonder if this neurotic compulsion has a code in DSM-IV. :eek: I am sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933/36 "2018-09-10T17:25:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > And I certainly do apologize for losing my temper and becoming snarky. My offense of incivility was clearly hundreds or thousands of times graver than any offence I might have perceived against me. My perverse need to have my statements acknowledged (and wrong-headed criticism retracted) is something that has plagued me most of my life. I wonder if this neurotic compulsion has a code in DSM-IV. :eek: > > I am sorry. Thanks for the apology. Maybe you could just try counting to 100 before posting something.😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-the-stronger-case-for-the-origin-of-the-celts-the-danube-region-or-iberian-peninsula/820933.md?page=1)