# Which large cities have the best and worst public transit systems **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 10, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082 "2009-11-10T19:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DETXL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/detxl/32/19366_2.png) [@DETXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DETXL)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/41 "2009-11-11T00:31:26Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Thanks for the website. As far as SF public transit, does AC transit take you over the bridge from Oakland into SF proper? Is BART the only system that will do that? > > Are there any public transit systems that have a monthly fee (rather than a fee everytime you use it like BART) that will take someone from Oakland to SF proper? AC Transit runs transbay lines, including from Oakland, though I don’t know all the route numbers. As far as I know all the AC Transit busses stop at the Transbay Terminal, which can be less convenient if you are going elsewhere. However, the monthly pass, at [$132.50](http://www2.actransit.org/riderinfo/busfares.wu), is marginally cheaper than at least my BART fares (from El Cerrito to the city, though I don’t think it matters what stop you get off at between the Embarcadero and Civic Center) ---
**Author:** ![Spezza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Spezza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spezza)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/42 "2009-11-11T00:47:13Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Toronto’s city transit system, the TTC, manages to be middle-of-the-road decent in spite of its own managerial inefficiency. Middle-of-the-road?! Toronto has horrendous and expensive public transit. The [OCED](http://www.oecd.org/document/36/0,3343,en_2649_37429_44033380_1_1_1_1,00.html) just released a report heavily critical of Toronto’s public transit. Considering there is no rail connection to the airport, I consider Toronto’s public transit a failure. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/43 "2009-11-11T00:55:55Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > Personal opinion aside: I’m not a fan of mass transit in modern American cities. It’s like, who are we kidding? Cities that grew up from 1950 on were built with the automobile in mind; trying to force a mass transit system on top of those cities (like L.A., the model example) Los Angeles once had the best public transit system in the world, and it was BECAUSE of that system the city sprawled out. The common assumption that it was always built for cars is totally false. ---
**Author:** ![Schrodinger\_s\_Platypus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Schrodinger\_s\_Platypus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schrodinger_s_Platypus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/44 "2009-11-11T01:08:36Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > Philadelphia is actually quite good. Bus and trolley service is consistent and easy to use as it takes advantage of the grid-style street layout. Subway and “Subway Surface” (trains and trolleys that run part above and below street level on one route) connect underground to various subway routes. > > It’s being _out of town and trying to get into Philly that is tough_. Are there good spots? Sure, but it is woefully inadequate overall. > > Living in Philly and living with public trans is actually quite good (you just have to adjust and control for all the Philadelphians who are conditioned by previous generations to bitch and moan when you seek opinions other than mine). That is, of course, provided that they aren’t having their quadrennial hissy fit and strike. Not a bad one this year, considering how bad it could have been. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/45 "2009-11-11T02:33:25Z")
> [@phreesh](#): > > I don’t live in these places, but while travelling, I have found the Washington and Montreal subway systems to be clean, efficient and convenient. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Washington DC public transportation is very good, maybe the best. I live in the DC area and disagree heartily with this. The trains and stations are clean and comfortable but seem to be designed more as a concept art project than a practical transportation system. It was designed to get suburbanites in and out of the city, which it does reasonably well, but they have never caught up with the need to go point-to-point within the city. And Metro management is under file for lack of attention to safety issues as employees and passengers have been involved in fatal accidents. > [@davekhps](#): > > D.C. has a great subway system-- IF you live near a subway stop. Trouble is, there aren’t enough of them, and what’s there isn’t always in the most convenient place (no Georgetown stop–long story–finally getting a Tyson’s Corner/Dulles line, no stop in Old Town Alexandria, etc.). Exactly. Although I suppose there are political reasons behind it (the Rich Washingtonian NIMBY lobby), the lack of a Metro station in Georgetown is a stunning omission. ---
**Author:** ![Rack-a-Bones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rack-a-Bones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rack-a-Bones)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/46 "2009-11-11T03:17:27Z")
> [@heavybuhbuh](#): > > I have been in many-a-moments with a bone chilling cold wind in San Francisco waiting for a bus, almost to the point of walking home up and down a few very steep hills after a 45 minute wait, just to finally have the bus that is supposed to run every 15 minutes show up with 3,4,5, even six buses in tow. This is a big problem with the bus system in San Francisco. When they show up they show up in bunches. I do like that most of the buses are electric and very quiet. > … This was always my experience with SF. Wait an hour in the cold and then have 4 busses show up. If you carefully read their signs they say “an average of every 15 minutes.” So technically they met their average but it is infuriating. This was almost the norm at night but during the day it was ok. NYC has it down pat as noted by others above. I now live in Seattle and I would grade it as “meh.” The busses do a pretty good job but sometimes it can take forever to get places because of all the stops. If you catch an express bus those only run during rush hour. Then we have the usless street car and monorail. I’m really hoping that light rail will pick up the slack. Hopefully, it will get out to neighborhoods like Ballard and then go all the way to the airport. That is the plan, but this city has a bad history when it comes to getting public transportation projects finished. > [@Svejk\_1](#): > > I think Moscow should win the thread (as far as best system is concerned) - it beats the shit out of pretty much every other system I’m familiar with where it concerns price, coverage and cleanliness, plus many of the stations are like huge ballrooms or museum halls; some have chandeliers in them! Thank you for posting this. Moscow has an amazing subway. It has been 20 years since I’ve been there but I still vividly remember how clean the stations were and the ball room like feel of it. Mosaic murals on the ceilings. [I mean, look at this!](http://cache.wists.com/thumbnails/6/12/61235ea1839af606612358fca9b6b7ef-orig) Wow! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/47 "2009-11-11T03:22:30Z")
> [@Rack-a-Bones](#): > > [I mean, look at this!](http://cache.wists.com/thumbnails/6/12/61235ea1839af606612358fca9b6b7ef-orig) Wow! What a country! ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/48 "2009-11-11T03:50:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Thanks for the website. As far as SF public transit, does AC transit take you over the bridge from Oakland into SF proper? Is BART the only system that will do that? > > Are there any public transit systems that have a monthly fee (rather than a fee everytime you use it like BART) that will take someone from Oakland to SF proper? All AC Transist lines starting with a letter were Transbay busses, at least that was true two years ago. You also might be interested to know that BART, AC Transit and Muni used to have a combined pass as well. Yep [here](http://www.bart.gov/tickets/plus.aspx) it is, I see AC Transit is no longer part of the group, but a bunch of others are. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/49 "2009-11-11T03:52:00Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > I think Moscow should win the thread (as far as best system is concerned) - it beats the shit out of pretty much every other system I’m familiar with where it concerns price, coverage and cleanliness, plus many of the stations are like huge ballrooms or museum halls; some have chandeliers in them! Moscow is good, but it takes nearly 3 minutes just to go down the escalator! They do have good directions in the stations, so I never got lost there. London is one of my favorites as long as everything is running. A friend and I once ran for 20 minutes with luggage to catch the last train to Heathrow. I was about to pass out after that. I liked the Madrid Metro very much. It has great coverage and signs pointing to entrances from 100+ meters away. The only decent subway system I’ve been on in the US is New York, which gets extra points for being 24/7, and for having plenty of rats to look at. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/50 "2009-11-11T03:54:11Z")
I came in here to mention Moscow. Not only amazingly well run, but the stations are beautiful, just filled with public art (some of it is Stalinist public art, but still…). ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/51 "2009-11-11T03:56:40Z")
In the Western US, it seems to be a given that you’re going to be driving your own car by the time you’ve finished high school, if not before, so mass transit seems to be not very well thought out. I know it wasn’t in Albuquerque when I lived there. Its bus system was so-so; you might have to wait an hour for the one you wanted. Honolulu has an excellent bus system. There are even two Circle Island buses – one clockwise, the other counterclockwise – that are the cheapest “tours” there. Bangkok has an excellent bus system, but it’s not very foreigner friendly. You pretty much need to know exactly where you’re going and maybe even read a little Thai, but it will take you close to everywhere. The daredevil driving tactics put a lot of tourists off, though. And of course we’ve had an elevated train for a decade now, and a subway for a few years, and those help tremendously. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/52 "2009-11-11T04:06:25Z")
As most of you know I’m a fan of Montreal’s public transit. Aside from the interior decoration, I consider it reasonably extensive and I know that a huge proportion of Montrealers don’t need cars. Of course we do benefit from a very high downtown residential density for North America. Unfortunately, many very dense but outlying residential areas of town are not served by the metro (there were no extensions for twenty years before 2007), and transit to the suburbs is far from what it should be, especially considering we’re on an island. (Our commuter trains are pathetically infrequent, since much of their routes are on mainline right-of-way and have to compete with freight.) Construction of new heavy infrastructure, despite being regularly promised, takes proverbially forever, although recent improvements to headway have noticeably improved service. This summer I experienced the rail transit networks of Amsterdam, Cologne, Berlin, Dresden, Prague, Vienna, Rome, Genoa, Marseille, Copenhagen, and Stockholm (as well as the vaporetti of Venice). Surprisingly, I’d say my best memories are those of Vienna, without really knocking any of the others (although I concur with the assessment of Rome – but these things happen when the earth you’re building your metro through has four thousand years worth of priceless artifacts in it). The metro that has most blown me away in my time, though, is Madrid. It’s enormous and grew immensely through the 2000s. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/53 "2009-11-11T04:16:03Z")
AS **CookingWithGas** points out, the DC Metro system has killed around a dozen passengers and workers this year and seems to have been deliberately ignoring safety issues. Reliability has also taken a serious hit. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/54 "2009-11-11T05:02:04Z")
I have lived in Chicago since 1987 and haven’t had a car during any of that time so I use public transit several times a day. The only real complaint I have with the train/el system is that it was designed to connect all parts of the city with the Loop. For example, getting from the lakefront to somewhere like Wicker Park or Logan Square can be a pain in the ass. Other than that I think it is a great system. I also have to say I was impressed with the subways in both Madrid and Barcelona a few weeks ago. Very easy to use, clean and safe. Obviously the system in NYC is fantastic as already mentioned by several posters. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/55 "2009-11-11T05:26:49Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I have lived in Chicago since 1987 and haven’t had a car during any of that time so I use public transit several times a day. The only real complaint I have with the train/el system is that it was designed to connect all parts of the city with the Loop. For example, getting from the lakefront to somewhere like Wicker Park or Logan Square can be a pain in the ass. Other than that I think it is a great system. Same here. I’ve lived in Chicago for years and we’ve never had a car and am glad we don’t. I’ve seen how these people drive. Bus bunching is a pet peeve though, and I’m convinced it’s caused by drivers hanging out at waiting points, talking. Every time I see this happen, I note that it’s always a male driver in one bus, a female driver in the other. Hopefully the new bus tracker GPS system will allow them to discipline drivers for being consistently tardy. London’s system is clear, well defined…and totally useless for anyone with any sort of social life. The damn thing shuts down way too early, and you’re stuck with a small selection of “night buses”. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/56 "2009-11-11T06:47:56Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Although I suppose there are political reasons behind it (the Rich Washingtonian NIMBY lobby) That’s apparently a [myth](http://thirdrail.smorgasblog.com/archives/002856.html). On the Moscow metro, while the stations are certainly visually stunning, for me the best thing about it was that you never ever have to run for a train. If you miss the one that’s on the platform now, there will be another one in 2-3 minutes - virtually guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/57 "2009-11-11T07:00:05Z")
For a large city, LA is about as crappy as Kinshasa (D.R. Congo). I think the best has Tokyo and Prague in the running. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/58 "2009-11-11T07:37:50Z")
[QUOTE=CookingWithGas] The trains and stations are clean and comfortable but seem to be designed more as a concept art project than a practical transportation system. It was designed to get suburbanites in and out of the city, which it does reasonably well, but they have never caught up with the need to go point-to-point within the city. [/QUOTE] IIRC, the DC Metro and BART were more or less conceptualized at the same time in the 1950s by more or less the same people, so it’s not surprising that they both function as a means of moving suburbanites around the region, rather than getting people to specific locations. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/59 "2009-11-11T07:44:06Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The trains have a schedule and you could almost set your watch by it. In ten years in Boston, I have never even seen a schedule for the subway. The NYC subways actually run on a schedule as well, though of course there are often delays. [http://mta.info/nyct/service/schemain.htm](http://mta.info/nyct/service/schemain.htm) ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/60 "2009-11-11T08:20:39Z")
I love Portland(Oregon)'s mass transit system. The buses and trains are all on time, Tri-Met just opened their Green Line which runs on the east side and has been sorely needed. All the MAX line stops have TVs that show which color train is coming and at what time. Every bus and MAX line has a Stop ID, which you can keep for later reference. They have a website and phone # you can call to when the next train/bus will be arriving. The trip planning portion is easy to use. We just had more streetcar lines put in downtown and a new way for the trains to go. You can buy a monthly pass, but many companies provide yearly passes for free. The train and buses stop running at 1 AM in some places, some it stops just after 11 PM. I work graveyard, but if I worked during the day I’d ride the train more often since more trains are running then. My one complaint is it takes forEVER to get through downtown on the MAX. Not only are the stops every two blocks but the trains stop at every red light. We really need an el train for downtown. I didn’t know how spoiled I was until we rode AmTrak up to Seattle for some fun. There’s only paper booklets that say when the next bus is coming. The bus stop didn’t have a Stop ID and no phone number or website to go to to see when the next one was coming. The bus arrived almost on time as our paper booklet said, and he drove like a maniac to get out of the city to the burbs. I wanted to ride the monorail but it was closed. I heard the bus driver say “Is the monorail closed again?” on his talkie, which tells me it happens a lot. Salt Lake’s bus system is remarkably similar. I haven’t ridden that one in ten years, so I don’t know if they have a train or not. Probably not, there was a lot of fight about getting light rail put in anywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082.md?page=4)