# Which large cities have the best and worst public transit systems **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 10, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082 "2009-11-10T19:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/81 "2009-11-12T08:06:10Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > In fairness, Hong Kong got this idea from Singapore (who in turn may have copied Moscow or St. Petersburg). I remember when I lived in HK reading a newspaper article mocking Singapore for its paternalistic safety ethic, and citing glassed-in subway stations as an example of this. This was about 10 years before the MTR added glass walls to _its_ stations. That was only for the underground stations though; note ‘was’ because right now Singapore is adding glass walls to above-ground stations too. ---
**Author:** ![heavybuhbuh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@heavybuhbuh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavybuhbuh)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/82 "2009-11-12T10:04:27Z")
I always loved the signs right behind the drivers on the MUNI trains in San Francisco announcing “_Information Gladly Given but Safety Requires You to Refrain from Meaningless Conversation_”. A polite, politically correct way of telling passengers to leave the drivers alone. I want to put this quote on a t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/83 "2009-11-12T13:54:18Z")
Other than having to deal with far too many riders, Tokyo’s system is really nice. Good routes take you anywhere, trains generally on time, and plenty of busses. I went for years without a car, and it was only when I started golfing and then had a family that I needed one. My only complaints are the overcrowding during the morning commute and that the trains don’t run all night. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/84 "2009-11-12T16:26:18Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > Istanbul is criss-crossed with bus lines that got me anywhere I wanted to go. There’s also the Tünel, the Metro, and a tram that I rode only occasionally. Oh yeah, the Istanbul system is great. I traveled on the metro and the trams and found them to be fast, clean, and efficient. My only quibble is that, IIRC, you have to buy your tokens from an actual person in a booth, which means waiting in lines and, if you’re like me and don’t speak Turkish, feeling foolish when you have to use sign language to communicate. An automated system where you buy a card from a machine would be a little easier. ---
**Author:** ![FallenAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FallenAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FallenAngel)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/85 "2009-11-12T19:32:49Z")
Phoenix has one of the worst I’ve ever seen. In the 50’s there was a decent trolley system that could have been modernized as the city grew. Instead the wise city fathers ripped it out. The Phoenix metro area is huge, more than 2,000 square miles. Bus service to the outlying areas is spotty, at best, and on a fairly erratic schedule. Because people enjoy the freedom of movement cars permit and because public transportation in most areas will take up to three hours to get from the east side of town to the west or vice versa, everyone drives, which compounds the traffic problems and reduces the demand for public transportation in a vicious cycle. In addition to lack of viable routes, in many parts of the metro area, there are no bus pullouts. The bus simply blocks the right lane to take on and drop off passengers, again adding to traffic congestion since the people in the right lane get stuck behind the buses if there’s traffic in the middle/ left lanes. Unfortunately, in an area this size, with this many people forced to fend for themselves regarding transit for most of the last 60 years, public transportation is not a viable solution here. If either the service area or the population were smaller, it would be, but as it stands there’s just no way to cover the area or change social habits through effective service and operate in a fiscally responsible manner. That doesn’t stop the government and the eco crowd from trying, though. A few years ago, in a setup greatly resembling the monorail episode of The Simpsons, a light rail was proposed. Proponents engaged in a massive public misinformation campaign regarding ridership, budget, economic impact during development, whether the trains would be elevated vs running at street level, return on investment, job creation, traffic reduction and on and on. The ballot measure passed by a narrow but not insignificant margin based on the transit authority and developers’ outright lies. We dropped more than a billion dollars on the initial construction and materials, with another billion or so set aside for planned expansions into secondary issues. Dozens of businesses downtown went out of business because construction restricted customers’ access, despite the fact that light rail was supposed to be their savior and bring millions of dollars to them. The trains were not elevated, as they had been in the initial descriptions and drawings; so street traffic has gotten worse in the areas light rail serves, since the trains obviously have the right of way. The card scanners for riders would issue a ticket or transfer without actually processing the metro card, a glitch that cost the authority more than half a million dollars in the first year of operations, and the only segment of the line that’s experiencing anything near the degree of consistent ridership projected is the line for downtown to Arizona State University. Fares have already gone up twice, and the system is still losing money. More than half of its current operating cost is subsidized by the government, and that’s not expected to turn around. Ever. Expansion plans have been put on hold but are still on the table. It was a boondoggle from start to finish. The county would have been far better served to take half the money the light rail cost, double the fleet of buses and install bus pullouts at every stop. That wasn’t sexy or trendy enough and wouldn’t make Phoenix look like a “real” city. So, we’re out a couple billion dollars in the short term, up to three over the next 10 years, only metro rider traffic from downtown to ASU has improved, street traffic is actually worse and we’ve lost dozens of small businesses that had actually been contributing to the local economy, all because a few construction companies and area “leaders” wanted a vanity project so badly they ignored all responsible math. Thanks, folks, much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/86 "2009-11-12T21:06:07Z")
I’m not a big fan of the NYC subway system, only because relatively few stations have elevators. If I didn’t need them, I’m sure it’d be a wonderful system I’d use frequently. I found both the T (Boston) and Washington, D.C.'s subway system to be very accessible and manageable - I was thrilled that I could board without having to wait for someone with a ramp/to wheelie me in. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/87 "2009-11-12T22:44:51Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I’ve traveled all over Europe, East and West, and if you mention a European city that isn’t in Germany, you’re wrong 😛 Vienna is at least as good as Frankfurt or Munich. (never been to Berlin) I have frequently remarked that Austrians are more German than the Germans are. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/88 "2009-11-13T03:23:55Z")
> [@CrazyChop](#): > > That was only for the underground stations though; note ‘was’ because right now Singapore is adding glass walls to above-ground stations too. Bangkok’s subway stations are glass-walled, too. Opened only a few years ago, I suspect it took a lesson from Singapore. But the platforms on the above-ground Skytrain are not walled in. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone falling or jumping onto the track in its 10-year history. At least, it never made the news. But there have been some suicides by people jumping to the sidewalk below. You’d have to wall in the entire outside of the station to prevent that! ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/89 "2009-11-13T04:02:14Z")
> [@](#): > > I think Moscow should win the thread (as far as best system is concerned) - it beats the shit out of pretty much every other system I’m familiar with where it concerns price, coverage and cleanliness, plus many of the stations are like huge ballrooms or museum halls; some have chandeliers in them! The only problem is that it’s in Moscow:) ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/90 "2009-11-13T05:58:58Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > I am impressed with New York and London in terms of the convenience of many stations and lots of track, but I would like to nominate Hong Kong in the category of…SAFETY!!! > > In Hong Kong all the platforms are glassed-in, so that the train pulls up to a certain point and the train doors open simultaneously with the platform’s glass doors. There’s no way you can fall off the platform and get run over! No need for a subway hero at all! Singapore is like this, as are some stations in Seoul and Beijing. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/91 "2009-11-13T08:21:49Z")
After having lived in or around NYC for 25 years, it’s easy for me to forget how damn confusing the subways can be for a newbie. On the other hand, being a newbie in European cities, I was amazed how easy it is to get around, even for someone who doesn’t speak the language. I think the best is Paris: You can get from anywhere in the city to anywhere else . . . and only rarely have to change trains more than once. That’s assuming they’re not on strike. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/92 "2009-11-13T08:24:10Z")
Houston’s Metro system sucks. And we blew millions of tax bucks on a toy train that runs from downtown to the Medical Center, and it’s empty most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/93 "2009-11-13T14:18:26Z")
I must disagree with DC being one of the best. The Metro system has gone seriously downhill in the last decade. Every weekend there’s track work on some part of the system that means single-tracking and delays of up to half an hour. After the [June 22 crash](http://www.blog.mymetrostop.com/2009/06/22/update-june-22-2009-metro-train-crash/) all trains have been operated manually which further slows things down and nobody can say when, or _if,_ things will ever go back to normal. The buses may be alright in DC, but just try relying on them in Northern Virginia. They run once an hour in offpeak times, every half-hour in rush hour, and most bus stops don’t have shelters or adequate lighting. There’s a reason almost all bus passengers in Fairfax County are recent immigrants (who presumably can’t afford cars yet). ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/94 "2009-11-13T15:03:17Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > But there are a LOT of buses out there and even at 2AM there’s a bus every five minutes on Yonge Street. :: checks schedule :: Every _three_ minutes. 🙂 Ah, but that’s the _schedule_ and it may or may not reflect reality. My streetcar should come every three minutes during rush hour. I was late for an appointment because I waited almost a half hour. Toronto’s middle-of-the-road system is declining rapidly (when it’s operating and not on strike). We’ve given up completely and now bike everywhere within a 10k radius (yes, even in winter) and walk. The two times I tried to take the streetcar last winter I only got one and four blocks from my home respectively, before one streetcar announced that is was going out of service at the corner, and the other’s brakes got stuck (shutting down the entire west bound line for half the city). Walking in -35 celcius ain’t fun, but it’s still more reliable than the TTC on any given day. But my biggest pet peeve is that the streetcar is accessible only to the able bodied. Actually Toronto’s transit system is woefully equipped when it comes to accessibility in general, but at least the buses are accessible. A colleague had a friend arriving by train to Union Station. To get to my colleague’s apartment by TTC would be a _3 hour_ mess of traveling all over hell’s acres and back since she needed wheelchair accessible options, or a ten minute cab ride. My favorite transit systems are in Montreal in Chicago. Love Chicago’s system. ---
**Author:** ![pilzner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pilzner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pilzner)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/95 "2009-11-13T15:10:17Z")
I logged in to say how bad Phoenix is. Can’t believe it wasn’t mentioned until post #85. No sunday service, horrid transit shelter conditions, arterials the size of freeways. I lived three years there with no car, and left just before the rail was approved. I haven’t seen it, but from a transit user’s perspective, have no idea why anyone thought it would succeed. I’m living in Seattle now and am still happily car free. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/96 "2009-11-13T18:37:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Houston’s Metro system sucks. > > And we blew millions of tax bucks on a toy train that runs from downtown to the Medical Center, and it’s empty most of the time. I use the train to commute & it’s _not_ empty when I use it. The only problem is that we need more lines–which are [finally](http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/05/28/after-years-of-conflict-houstons-transit-system-advances/) being planned. > [@](#): > > Tom DeLay (R), who represented Sugar Land in the U.S. House, was adamantly opposed. Sugar Land is a suburb southwest of Houston that is too far away to justify extensive transit investments there. In 2000, the congressman killed $65 million appropriated by Congress for the now-planned Main Street line and proceeded to write language into the federal transportation bill effectively making it impossible for Houston to receive money for light rail from Washington. Not that Houston is on anybody’s list of “best” transit systems… ---
**Author:** ![Choppy247](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Choppy247](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Choppy247)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/97 "2009-11-13T18:58:10Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > I think Moscow should win the thread (as far as best system is concerned) - it beats the shit out of pretty much every other system I’m familiar with where it concerns price, coverage and cleanliness, plus many of the stations are like huge ballrooms or museum halls; some have chandeliers in them! But if u r anything but a pure blooded russian (whatever that means) u have to be worried about getting kicked in the head by one of the many neo-nazis that hate so called blacks/coloreds ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/98 "2009-11-13T19:42:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Buses arriving in packs happens everywhere. It is a popular theme in NY, and I have a Flanders and Swann song where the intro mentions it. > > My objection to SF transit is that there are so many places BART doesn’t go to. I live in Fremont near the end of the line, and it is by far the best way of getting into the city, but if you want to go to Golden Gate Park, for instance, you have to negotiate Muni also. . Speaking of SF, I really like those electric trolley buses they have on some lines. I think some of the buses on the Haight line are of that type, which you rmentioning Golden Gate Park reminde me of. Those buses run quietly and give the passengers a nice smooth ride. Speaking of Golden Gate Park, I wonder how many tourists go up to the Golden Gate Bridge thinking they’ll find the Park there as well? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/99 "2009-11-14T03:53:53Z")
> [@Choppy247](#): > > But if u r anything but a pure blooded russian (whatever that means) u have to be worried about getting kicked in the head by one of the many neo-nazis that hate so called blacks/coloreds Sorry, but do you have any cites for that? I lived in Moscow for a year and I never had the problems that you describe. Moscow has crime, of course, but I haven’t seen roving gangs of skin-heads on the Metro. In fact, their Metro is something that Muscovites take great pride (justifiably so). And I agree that you never run to a train, there is one every minute during rush our and they run frequently right up until it closes. There is even a countdown clock that shows when the next train is coming. Every time I’m waiting for a train in the DC metro after peak hours I think back to how great Moscow’s metro is. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082/100 "2009-11-14T07:45:35Z")
> [@Choppy247](#): > > But if u r anything but a pure blooded russian (whatever that means) u have to be worried about getting kicked in the head by one of the many neo-nazis that hate so called blacks/coloreds I was in Moscow with my ex-boyfriend who was very clearly not “pure-blooded Russian”. No hassle whatsoever from Neo-Nazis. Some from Russian police though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-large-cities-have-the-best-and-worst-public-transit-systems/517082.md?page=6)