# Which laws were violated here? Consequences? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 1, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075 "2004-07-01T16:54:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/1 "2004-07-01T16:54:30Z")
So here’s the background story: Months ago, my employer hired a new staff member whom we’ll call **J**. We heard all sorts of wonderful things about **J** , including that he was multilingual, a world traveller, and a doctor. Not just any kind of doctor; a neurosurgeon from a prestigious medical school nearby who had decided to give up medicine for a new career. He gets here, and it turns out he’s 24 years old :dubious: . The stories he told were essentially unbelievable, and lasted until our administation received a call from the French consulate. They had accidentally received a letter addressed to our office (it arrived by the return address), about **J** , on their own letterhead. It turns out that no one at the consulate wrote the letter and it was an obvious (to them) forgery. **J** quits soon afterward and leaves. My questions are: Is it illegal to impersonate an M.D.? (As a side note, AFAIK he did not practice medicine, but a part of the job requirement does include medical training and at some point he would have had to provide 1st aid or more in the course of his duties… I don’t know if he had current 1st aid certification - it would seem to be redundant to ask an M.D. for his 1st aid cert.) Is it illegal to forge a letter? What are the consequences for these acts? I am only asking to satisfy my curiousity, since no criminal action or charges have been brought. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/2 "2004-07-01T17:41:20Z")
In Texas (and I assume most or all other states), impersonating a doctor is a felony if it causes someone either physical or financial harm. I don’t know if your man’s conduct would have gone far enough to qualify, but it sounds like if he didn’t cross the line, he walked right up to it. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/3 "2004-07-01T19:03:47Z")
IANAL etc. The [California code](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=70850211846+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve) on forgery: > [@](#): > > CALIFORNIA CODES > PENAL CODE > SECTION 470-483.5 > > 1. (a) Every person who, with the intent to defraud, knowing that he or she has no authority to do so, signs the name of another person or of a fictitious person to any of the items listed in subdivision (d) is guilty of forgery. > (b) Every person who, with the intent to defraud, counterfeits or forges the seal or handwriting of another is guilty of forgery. > © Every person who, with the intent to defraud, alters, corrupts, or falsifies any record of any will, codicil, conveyance, or other instrument, the record of which is by law evidence, or any record of any judgment of a court or the return of any officer to any process of any court, is guilty of forgery. > (d) Every person who, with the intent to defraud, falsely makes, alters, forges, or counterfeits, utters, publishes, passes or attempts or offers to pass, as true and genuine, any of the following items, knowing the same to be false, altered, forged, or > counterfeited, is guilty of forgery: any check, bond, bank bill, or note, cashier’s check, traveler’s check, money order, post note, draft, any controller’s warrant for the payment of money at the treasury, county order or warrant, or request for the payment of money, receipt for money or goods, bill of exchange, promissory note, > order, or any assignment of any bond, writing obligatory, or other contract for money or other property, contract, due bill for payment of money or property, receipt for money or property, passage ticket, lottery ticket or share purporting to be issued under the California State Lottery Act of 1984, trading stamp, power of attorney, certificate of ownership or other document evidencing ownership of a vehicle or undocumented vessel, or any certificate of any share, right, or interest in the stock of any corporation or association, or the delivery of goods or chattels of any kind, or for the delivery of any instrument of writing, or acquittance, release or discharge of any debt, account, suit, action, demand, or any other thing, real or personal, or any transfer or assurance of money, certificate of shares of stock, goods, chattels, or other property whatever, or any letter of attorney, or other power to receive money, or to receive or transfer certificates of shares of stock or annuities, or to let, lease, dispose of, alien, or convey any goods, chattels, lands, or tenements, or other estate, real or personal; or any matter described in subdivision (b). > (e) Upon a trial for forging any bill or note purporting to be the bill or note of an incorporated company or bank, or for passing, or attempting to pass, or having in possession with intent to pass, any forged bill or note, it is not necessary to prove the incorporation of the bank or company by the charter or act of incorporation, but it may be proved by general reputation; and persons of skill are competent witnesses to prove that the bill or note is forged or counterfeited. > > 470a. Every person who alters, falsifies, forges, duplicates or in any manner reproduces or counterfeits any driver’s license or identification card issued by a governmental agency with the intent that such driver’s license or identification card be used to facilitate the commission of any forgery, is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year. > > 470b. Every person who displays or causes or permits to be displayed or has in his possession any driver’s license or identification card of the type enumerated in Section 470a with the intent that such driver’s license or identification card be used to facilitate the commission of any forgery, is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year. > > 1. Every person who, with intent to defraud another, makes, forges, or alters any entry in any book of records, or any instrument purporting to be any record or return specified in Section 470, is guilty of forgery. > > 471.5. Any person who alters or modifies the medical record of any person, with fraudulent intent, or who, with fraudulent intent, creates any false medical record, is guilty of a misdemeanor. > > 1. Every person who, with intent to defraud another, forges, or counterfeits the seal of this State, the seal of any public officer authorized by law, the seal of any Court of record, or the seal of any corporation, or any other public seal authorized or recognized by the laws of this State, or of any other State, Government, or country, or who falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any impression purporting to be an impression of any such seal, or who has in his possession any such counterfeited seal or impression thereof, knowing it to be counterfeited, and willfully conceals the same, is guilty of forgery. > > 2. Forgery is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year. So I would say that creating a letter on the stationery of the French consulate would be a forgery as defined by the code. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/4 "2004-07-01T19:18:05Z")
Name wasn’t Demara or Abagnale by any chance, was it? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/5 "2004-07-01T19:28:30Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > **In Texas** (and I assume most or all other states), impersonating a doctor is **a felony** if it causes someone either physical or financial harm. If it’s a felony in Texas, it’s a felony anywhere in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/6 "2004-07-01T20:15:36Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > (As a side note, AFAIK he did not practice medicine, but a part of the job requirement does include medical training and at some point he would have had to provide 1st aid or more in the course of his duties… I don’t know if he had current 1st aid certification - it would seem to be redundant to ask an M.D. for his 1st aid cert.) I would never assume that any M.D., regardless of specialty, was qualified to perform first aid. ---
**Author:** ![KP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a9adbd/32.png) [@KP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KP)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/7 "2004-07-01T20:22:17Z")
> [@](#): > > it would seem to be redundant to ask an M.D. for his 1st aid cert. For future reference, it’s not only NOT redundant, it’s often legally REQUIRED. The stuff they teach in medical school may give us a better insight into first aid, but I recall that many of my classmates, even talented ones, were clueless about the practical details until they took the various certifications. There is definite value in an annual refresher, however insultingly simplistic it may feel when I’m doing it I’d been certified in various levels of first aid for 15 years (starting with Boy Scout Advanced First Aid, Red Cross Life Guard training, etc. as a child, and ) when I started medical school, near the end of my first semester, a lady collapsed in a restaurant, and my brain, filled to exhaustion with anatomy, physiology and biochemistry, drew a complete blank on first aid I’d knowm most of my life. My ex, who I’d been helping with a basic EMT course at the time, was completely disgusted with me. I can’t blame her: I’d been just as disgusted with my father, a nonpracticing academic physician, who couldn’t do basic first aid whenever I was injured – In one incident, I might have bled to death, if the girl next door hadn’t gone to get her father. He was a telephone company exec who’d risen from lineman after high school, and remembered his first aid better than my dad. I can tell you this: hospitals demand that their house officers (residents) have current certs at all times. You can get in trouble if you intervene when you’re not. I’ve seen MANY a senior attending stand back and let a nurse or respiratory tech with current certification handle a code, until a resident arrives. In fact, I’ll be recertifying in ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support or "What to do before and after you yell “Clear!”) and whatnot this weekend. We have a flurry of courses the first week of July each year, when the new interns come in. Sadly, I know from past experience that few of my colleagues will be there. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/8 "2004-07-01T21:14:03Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > What are the consequences for these acts? > > I am only asking to satisfy my curiousity, since no criminal action or charges have been brought. Seems to me that your employer should file charges against this person. Anyone who goes around impersonating a doctor to get a job is (a) a con artist and thus to be avoided and (b) possibly going to cause injury to someone down the line. Catching the person would do us all a great service. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/9 "2004-07-01T21:18:30Z")
How was the interview for J conducted, over the phone? Did your employer not check his bona fides before he offered him the job? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/10 "2004-07-01T22:16:03Z")
I imagine if he is collevting a paycheck in the guise of a doctor, he is committing fraud. And if your local statutes require a showing of “financial or physical harm”, a paycheck would certainly qualify for that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/11 "2004-07-01T23:10:09Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > If it’s a felony in Texas, it’s a felony anywhere in the U.S. Huh? :dubious: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/12 "2004-07-01T23:16:56Z")
I think the applicant’s forgery of the letter would constitute mail fraud, which is a federal offense. Also, I think the French consulate could press charges against him whether or not the company wanted to, since it was their letterhead he forged. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/13 "2004-07-01T23:47:58Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I would never assume that any M.D., regardless of specialty, was qualified to perform first aid. Back when I was taking EMT training, an instructor described a scenario where someone comes up to you at an accident scene, and says “I’m a doctor, what can I do?”. The response? “Take these three flares, and put one every hundred yards down the road. When you get to the end, keep walking.” ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/14 "2004-07-03T07:53:52Z")
Thanks all for the responses. I appreciate your help, especially those who additionally let me know that doctors still need to prove they’re trained in 1st aid. 🙂 It seems he really was well over the line in terms of criminal law. Shockingly, he was interviewed in person, and his references were checked! One of the folks here who does the checking told me that people who you call for references can tell you very little about a person, for fear of being sued. I can only assume that his references were from a more recent job and not from the medical school (one of the things references can tell you is whether the person ever worked/studied there, and when). The French have apparently decided not to persue the matter; I (really awkwardly) ran into him at a conference after he left. He’s definitely something of a con man, but he was pretty careless about his stories being contradictory to obvious facts or other stories. I suspect he may have been something of a pathological liar, if there is such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-laws-were-violated-here-consequences/253075/15 "2004-07-03T16:47:54Z")
Originally Posted by Ethilrist If it’s a felony in Texas, it’s a felony anywhere in the U.S. To which DrDeth replied: Huh? If I may intervene, I’m guessing that what Ethilrish meant was that if this conduct was considered a felony in Texas that therefore it is extremely likely that the other 49 US States have similar criminal statutes on their books which make that conduct a felony there too.