# Which of these Countries is a Middle Power **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018 "2022-12-04T13:56:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/1 "2022-12-04T13:56:04Z")
_Poll ([view on site](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/1))_ I find the concept of Middle Powers rather interesting. It has been defined as [countries which make no claim to the title of great power, but have been shown to be capable of exerting a degree of strength and influence not found in the small powers.](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization/article/abs/middle-powers-in-the-united-nations-system/351A913639969929261F443F7AD778B6) One way to look at them is to see them as countries that “punch above their weight” due to demographics (Brazil), economy (Japan) or culture (Italy) or, of course, a mix of several factors. There are various lists of those Middle Powers but none overlap perfectly. So I turn to you to choose countries that fit the description and tell us on which criteria you based your choice. You can pick up to 4 countries. The US and China are excluded from this thread as the former is the sole Super Power at the moment and the latter may be in the process of becoming one. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/2 "2022-12-04T14:01:43Z")
Why did you limit it to 4? That seems arbitrary and too small of a number. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/3 "2022-12-04T14:05:37Z")
4 makes this difficult, but I included two countries that are actively engaged in effective regional warfare: Saudi Arabia and Russia. Whether those wars will ultimately meet their goals is unclear, but clearly they are engaged in “exerting a degree of strength and influence”. I would have also included the UK and Japan, although Japan’s inclusion would be questionable. Certainly it has the capability to exercise influence should it choose to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/4 "2022-12-04T14:06:12Z")
It was indeed arbitrary and I realize that I did not include Israël and Pakistan, two countries which should be in there, probably more so than, say, Argentina and Thaïland. Can a mod replace the latter countries with the former two ? And perhaps extend the choices to 8, which is also arbitrary but more generous ? What I’d like to avoid is people going “Well, you can make a claim for all of them”, making the poll useless. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/5 "2022-12-04T14:06:56Z")
Closed on December 4, 2022, 2:06pm UTC ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/6 "2022-12-04T14:08:36Z")
I’m working on the change. Unfortunately any change to the poll wipes the votes. But requested changes are in place. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/7 "2022-12-04T14:10:00Z")
Opened on December 4, 2022, 2:10pm UTC ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/8 "2022-12-04T14:17:26Z")
The 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council should be included. So that is **Russia** , **France** & the **UK**. **Germany** effectively runs the EU and is the largest economy of the EU. So they have to make the cut. **India** by number of people and size of the economy is a really strong candidate. **Japan** as a tech and economic giant. **Brazil** is a growing power and made my cut. Though I can see arguments against them. **Italy** is iffy but Moonrise won my vote with the cultural influence. I could see an argument for South Korea also, but went with Italy instead. ---
**Author:** ![Polarity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7cd45c/32.png) [@Polarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polarity)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/9 "2022-12-04T14:26:36Z")
North Korea with it’s nuclear weapon program and constant threats. They are a very poor small country with not much to offer the world. Yet, the world has to consider them in many decisions where they would otherwise be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/10 "2022-12-04T14:44:53Z")
@ [What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit), thank you and sorry for the mess. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > **Italy** is iffy but Moonrise won my vote with the cultural influence. Italy is an interesting case, indeed. Some of its assets are unexpected. For example, I only recently learned that : - its military capabilities are nothing to sneer at. With two aircraft carriers and several overseas military bases, it has some real projecting power ; - it has the eighth-largest economy by nominal GDP in the world ; - it has the world’s largest number of World Heritage Site ; - it is the fifth-most visited country in the world ; - its achievements in art, fashion, cuisine and sports make it a cultural superpower. Moreover, while Italian is barely in top 30 of the most spoken languages in the world, it is the 6th most studied. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/11 "2022-12-04T19:54:12Z")
Yeah, Italy is one of the countries I hemmed and hawed about for #8. I went with South Korea, due to their economy and their own domestic fighter plane production. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2022, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/12 "2022-12-05T02:32:30Z")
According to the article OP posted > Probably, however, the following members of the United Nations would generally be recognized as middle powers: in Europe — Belgium, the Netherlands, and Poland; in the Americas — Argentina, Brazil, Canada, and Mexico; in the Pacific — Australia, and India. Its hard to think of Poland and Canada in the same league. Their levels of development are far different. Germany and Israel seem too powerful to be middle powers even though neither is a permanent member of the UNSC. Israel is the military superpower in its region and Germany is the economic superpower of Europe. I’d guess I’d consider India and Brazil to be middle powers. Basically several of the BRICS countries. Brazil, India, maybe South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2022, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/13 "2022-12-05T02:39:15Z")
I feel like any country that has nuclear weapons is a de facto great power. ---
**Author:** ![Lancia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lancia/32/17174_2.png) [@Lancia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lancia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2022, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/14 "2022-12-05T04:35:17Z")
A undergrad PoliSci prof of mine once said that a nation’s ability to manufacture, store, and effectively deliver nuclear weapons was the very definition of a super power. I’m not sure it I buy that but it’s something to consider, anyway. Whether super power = great power I can’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2022, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/15 "2022-12-05T04:44:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > According to the article OP posted > > > Probably, however, the following members of the United Nations would generally be recognized as middle powers: in Europe — Belgium, the Netherlands, and Poland; in the Americas — Argentina, Brazil, Canada, and Mexico; in the Pacific — Australia, and India. > > Its hard to think of Poland and Canada in the same league. Their levels of development are far different. Germany and Israel seem too powerful to be middle powers even though neither is a permanent member of the UNSC. Israel is the military superpower in its region and Germany is the economic superpower of Europe. > > I’d guess I’d consider India and Brazil to be middle powers. Basically several of the BRICS countries. Brazil, India, maybe South Africa. This was confusing to me at first until I figured out why Germany and Israel aren’t even in that list: > Information > > [International Organization](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization) , [Volume 1](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization/volume/BC243D772E881D845BD19C63C63203E8) , [Issue 2](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization/issue/70915EF4EF3FBC793F9886D7B4AF347D) , **June 1947** , pp. 307 - 318 > > DOI: [https://doi.org/10.1017/S0020818300006081](https://doi.org/10.1017/S0020818300006081) Bolding mine; Germany was an occupied country and Israel literally didn’t exist yet when the article was published. It makes a whole lot more sense out of the sentence > For practical purposes the great powers at the present time are those which hold permanent seats on the Security Council, just as during the war they were those which participated in the meetings of heads of government on high policial and military policy. Not having to specify what war they’re talking about; in 1947 they were obviously talking about WWII. It also explains this > [@Smapti](#): > > I feel like any country that has nuclear weapons is a de facto great power. not being addressed; there was only one country with nuclear weapons in 1947. ---
**Author:** ![Jaycat.again](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat.again/32/11525_2.png) [@Jaycat.again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaycat.again)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/16 "2022-12-11T23:03:12Z")
I just came in to say, I didn’t know Israel had an umlaut. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/17 "2022-12-11T23:21:22Z")
Understandable confusion, but that is clearly a diaeresis 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2022, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/18 "2022-12-11T23:28:34Z")
I feel like, in order to pin down which nations are “Middle Powers”, we also have to at least define all of the categories above and below them. Clearly, a “superpower” is not a “middle power”… Is there a category of “great power” between those two? What marks the line between a “great power” and a “middle power”? And what’s below a “middle power”? Is that just “nonpowers”, or is there a category of “minor power”? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/19 "2022-12-12T00:05:35Z")
Just spitballing here, but I would break countries down into four groups: 1. Superpowers - countries that dominate the entire world 2. Great powers - countries that strongly influence the entire world. 3. Regional powers - countries that strongly influence surrounding countries, but little beyond that. 4. Non-powers - everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018/20 "2022-12-12T00:50:36Z")
It occurred to me to look into the origin of the word superpower and when it was first used, unsurprisingly it was first used during WWII in describing what the post-war world [might look like](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpower#:~:text=The%20term%20in%20its%20current,new%20post%2Dwar%20world%20order.): > The term was first used to describe nations with greater than [great power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power) status as early as 1944, but only gained its specific meaning with regard to the [United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and the [Soviet Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) after [World War II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). This was because the United States and the Soviet Union had proved themselves to be capable of casting great influence in global politics and military dominance. The term in its current political meaning was coined by Dutch-American [geostrategist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostrategist) [Nicholas Spykman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Spykman) in a series of lectures in 1943 about the potential shape of a new post-war world order. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-countries-is-a-middle-power/976018.md?page=2)