# Which of these medical cloning techniques would you be comfortable allowing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167 "2012-09-28T18:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/1 "2012-09-28T18:27:12Z")
On a recent trip to the Star Wars Universe to get teleport [Aayla Secura](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071005014960/starwars/images/9/92/Secura_and_Sing.jpg)\* out of the path of the blaster bolts that took her life, I stopped by the planet Kamino for some [del]thieving[/del] [del]raiding[/del] technological study and requisitioning. Kamino, as some of you may recall, is where [Clone Troopers](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Clone_trooper) are made, so I figured there had to be something there worthwhile. And so it was. After [del]twenty or thirty brutal murders[/del] some artful cat-burglary worthy of Parker from Leverage, I acquired everything Rhymer Inc. needs to set up my own cloning facility. No, I’m not making an army of clones. I’m not interest in conquest, just making money, spreading chaos, and making money. Thus rather than _weaponize_ cloning, my techs set about _medicalizing_ it: specifically making replacement body parts for amputees, people suffering organ failure, and so forth. And they’ve done just that. RI can not only reproduce healthy limbs for amputees, but also create disease-free replacements for organs when the original had an genetic defect. Three techniques are available: [ul] [li]_Whole-clone production_. The donor provides a cell sample, and after any genetic abnormalities are corrected, a complete new individual with a complete functioning brain is created. When the clone reaches the desired age, the desired organs or limbs may be harvested, sometimes but not inevitably killing the clone. (It depends on what we’re harvesting). This is not only the most reliable and stable technique (98% of the clones are usable) but the quickest as well; it takes about a month to bring an clone to suitable maturity for, say, a heart transplant for a thirty-year old). This is also the least expensive technique (though all these techniques are still hugely expensive).[/li][li]_Cerebrum-free clone production_. Just what it sounds like; the patient provides a cell sample, and the clone’s development is managed so that the brain never develops. Exotic computerized life support is used to control the clone’s metabolism and body functions. This technique is significantly more difficult and chancy than whole clone; only 66% of the clones are useful for harvesting. It’s also at least twice as expensive even if the first clone created is harvestable (which, of course, a third are not) and takes longer (about six months for that mature body for the heart transplant. After a single organ is harvested, we can then keep the rest of the body in stasis for up to ten years in case the customer needs anything more.[/li][li]_Single organ replication_. Only the desired body part is cloned. Because that body part must be brought to maturity alone, this is the most chancy of the techniques. Even when everything is done exactly right, about 50% of the cloned organs are not usuable. Single organ replication is also about twice as expensive as cerebrum-free production. It’s quicker, though. On average, a customer needing a cloned heart will have to wait three months before getting one.[/li][/ul] Which of these techniques would you be comfortable allowing in your country, and why? - Athena’s orders. I didn’t ask why. I just relocated her to a secure location, made her a very nice breakfast, made sure she knew how to work the coffee maker, and informed her that God would be calling shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/2 "2012-09-28T18:50:32Z")
I’ll own it, I’m good with the “whole clone production” as well as the kinder, gentler methods. Sacrifice is not a new concept to humanity, not even willing self-sacrifice. If the clone is raised and educated to not only understand its sole purpose as an organ-donor, but to embrace that role and to be proud of it, I see no ethical breech. It’s all about expectation-setting. One evening, the clone goes to bed a fanatical devotee of it’s donor and is swiftly & humanely euthanized and parted out none the wiser. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/3 "2012-09-28T18:53:49Z")
I’ve always thought that it’s wrong to kill people. At least, it’s wrong to kill people\* without giving them to chance to defend themselves. If a thing has no brain it cannot think nor feel, so isn’t really a person: carve away. Maybe if a person had to defeat the whole clone in a duel, but that doesn’t seem feasible. I’m surprised you need techs, though, **Skald** , I thought you were a more hands on type of [del]evil[/del] genius. Speaking of techs, I won’t need any of your organs because my guys have figured out a way to attach robotic limbs, with integrated weapons and armor. Also, there’s no way I’m going to believe that you’re not weaponizing, or planing to weaponize, the cloning technology. \*The same holds true for monsters, mighty beasts, demons, and gods. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/4 "2012-09-28T18:55:46Z")
I’m going to have to delay my vote until after I’ve tasted the cheesecake. 🆒 –G! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/5 "2012-09-28T18:59:33Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > I’ll own it, I’m good with the “whole clone production” as well as the kinder, gentler methods. Sacrifice is not a new concept to humanity, not even willing self-sacrifice. If the clone is raised and educated to not only understand its sole purpose as an organ-donor, but to embrace that role and to be proud of it, I see no ethical breech. It’s all about expectation-setting. > > One evening, the clone goes to bed a fanatical devotee of it’s donor and is swiftly & humanely euthanized and parted out none the wiser. Sort of like [The Dish Of The Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dish_of_the_Day_%28cow%29#Dish_of_the_Day) ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/6 "2012-09-28T19:03:12Z")
Yep. Meet the meat. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/7 "2012-09-28T19:09:58Z")
Spaarti cylinders, hmmmm? Do you have a supply of ysalamiri to go along with them? I wouldn’t be comfortable with whole-clone production myself. Too much like murder and/or slavery. The second option is out, because we don’t need more Republicans. So the only viable (heh, heh!) option is #3. Otherwise known as the [Niven Option](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Gift_from_Earth). ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/8 "2012-09-28T19:19:31Z")
I can’t go for the whole clone option; we don’t know where souls come from, so we can’t be sure that clones don’t have them. I could go for the brainless option and the single organ options. Actually, can we get on that single organ option right away? I need some new teeth. **Skald** , I voted that you weren’t a monster. See, Canadians aren’t all bad! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Imago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@Imago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imago)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/9 "2012-09-28T19:47:37Z")
I have no qualms with whole clone production. If they’ve only been alive a couple months, then fully functioning brain or no, it’s not like they’ve had much time to get attached to life. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/10 "2012-09-28T19:52:02Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > I’m going to have to delay my vote until after I’ve tasted the cheesecake. > 🆒 > –G! It is not my fault your teleport service has been suspended for non-payment of fees. But I’ll supply the [recipe](http://www.driscolls.com/recipes/view/3251/Decadent-Chocolate-Raspberry-Cheesecake). > [@silenus](#): > > Spaarti cylinders, hmmmm? Do you have a supply of ysalamiri to go along with them? The fact that the minions have been instructed not to kill you without provocation does not mean you are entitled to a inventory. You’re a servant of Dionysus, after all; by definition, not to be trusted. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t be comfortable with whole-clone production myself. Too much like murder and/or slavery. To live outside the law, you must first be honest. Whole-clone production for organ harvesting isn’t _like_ murder and/or slavery. > [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > I’ve always thought that it’s wrong to kill people. At least, it’s wrong to kill people\* without giving them to chance to defend themselves. 😕 That’s crazy talk. People who can defend themselves shoot back when you try to murder them. Are you trying to get me killed, hot shot? > [@](#): > > I’m surprised you need techs, though, **Skald** , I thought you were a more hands on type of [del]evil[/del] genius. I’m a big picture kind of guy. I don’t do scut work. That’s poor resource management. > [@](#): > > There’s no way I’m going to believe that you’re not weaponizing, or planing to weaponize, the cloning technology. Conquer the earth, and not only do you have to deal with the inevitable, frequently super-powered, and generally want-you-dead insurrectionists, but you also have to run the schools and the courts and the highway system and so forth. BORing. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I can’t go for the whole clone option; we don’t know where souls come from, so we can’t be sure that clones don’t have them. [heartless bastard] If the whole-body clones have souls, then surely they are innocent (as obviously I’m not gonna allow them to walk around and do stuff; that’s just begging for trouble). I am therefore confident that Athena will allow them to go straight to the Elysian Fields. If She wants them going to Tartarus, who am I to argue? [/heartless bastard] > [@](#): > > I could go for the brainless option and the single organ options. Actually, can we get on that single organ option right away? I need some new teeth. It’s your money, but I expect even a set of new teeth is gonna cost more than your house. > [@](#): > > **Skald** , I voted that you weren’t a monster. See, Canadians aren’t all bad! 🙂 So you can have two pieces of cake. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/11 "2012-09-28T19:59:52Z")
Can we just simply things and build me a medically perfect clone and swap my brain into it? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/12 "2012-09-28T20:02:59Z")
Whole clone production, would seem to me to be no different than killing another human, which is a monstrous act no matter how cheaply or efficiently they could be produced (or humanely euthanised). Simply because you contributed the DNA and money for the procedure gives you no right to claim ownership of the resulting person, in the same way that parents who contribute gametes and cash for fertility treatment do not have absolute ownership of the resulting offspring. I don’t think I could even make the same arguments that I would for supporting abortion to support the termination of a vat grown foetus (in that their presence is not impinging on the body of another, and they were created through conscious decision). So a vat-grown full clone, would, in my mind, once generated, have more rights than a naturally grown foetus. Totally brainless clones on the other hand, IMO, lack the requisite bit that differentiates a human from a lump of meat, they have no consciousness and no future possibility of consciousness and therefore I would be quite agreeable to their use for replacement parts and would willingly use them to prolong my life. Same goes for growing slaves or soldiers, brainless clones, who cares they’re biological robots, brain-in clones, there’s no difference between a normie and a tank/nipple-neck. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/13 "2012-09-28T20:05:50Z")
As given, I have trouble finding any moral fault in the first option. Yes, it is alive and can presumably feel pain, but it has also gone from a DNA sample to a full-grown, or at least mature enough for transpant, in month. So, yes, the clone may have the physical maturity of say a teenager, but presumably it’s brain would follow the same sort of developmental patterns as a normal human, just accelarated, meaning it would have extremely quickly grown through the period where it learns how to control it’s body, interact with and understand it’s surroundings, language, even basic thought. That is, I think that, if left alone, it would probably be worse off mentally than even a normal one-month old child and more or less stuck in that state for all of it’s life. So, it seems to me that even though it is physically a human, it wouldn’t be meaningfully human and never could be. That said, while I’d think it should probably be legal, I don’t think I’d really be able to do it unless time or money were a determining factor. Then again, since the OP says they’d all be outrageously expensive, chances are if I could afford one, I could afford any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/14 "2012-09-28T20:09:09Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > As given, I have trouble finding any moral fault in the first option. Yes, it is alive and can presumably feel pain, but it has also gone from a DNA sample to a full-grown, or at least mature enough for transpant, in month. So, yes, the clone may have the physical maturity of say a teenager, but presumably it’s brain would follow the same sort of developmental patterns as a normal human, just accelarated, meaning it would have extremely quickly grown through the period where it learns how to control it’s body, interact with and understand it’s surroundings, language, even basic thought. That is, I think that, if left alone, it would probably be worse off mentally than even a normal one-month old child and more or less stuck in that state for all of it’s life. So, it seems to me that even though it is physically a human, it wouldn’t be meaningfully human and never could be. > > That said, while I’d think it should probably be legal, I don’t think I’d really be able to do it unless time or money were a determining factor. Then again, since the OP says they’d all be outrageously expensive, chances are if I could afford one, I could afford any of them. So you would be happy euthanising educationally subnormal children for use in present day organ transplants? What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/15 "2012-09-28T20:17:52Z")
I cannot morally conscion method 1. Method 2 squicks me out–it looks like a body even though it doesn’t have a functioning brain. A step down from Terry Schiavo, but I still couldn’t do it. I can’t really support method 3 based on its uncomfortably-high failure rate. So, none of the above. But if a gun were pointed at my head, method 3. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/16 "2012-09-28T20:23:12Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > . But if a gun were pointed at my head, method 3. I think that that’s the point. The people choosing to utilise the cloning techniques would have a metaphorical gun to their heads, and so probably shouldn’t be the people to decide whether this was something that was ethical or not. I’m not sure I understand your objection to number 3. What if number 2 were not body shaped, but amorphous skin bags filled with the right components? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/17 "2012-09-28T20:23:32Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I cannot morally conscion method 1. Method 2 squicks me out–it looks like a body even though it doesn’t have a functioning brain. A step down from Terry Schiavo, but I still couldn’t do it. I can’t really support method 3 based on its uncomfortably-high failure rate. So, none of the above. But if a gun were pointed at my head, method 3. Is your opposition to method 3 (single-organ replication) ethical or practical? If the latter, I don’t understand your objection; can you explain it? if the former, one of our tech-heads will soon be along to point out that the technology will improve with time, practice, economic incentives, and more people doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/18 "2012-09-28T20:28:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > \ > [heartless bastard] > If the whole-body clones have souls, then surely they are innocent (as obviously I’m not gonna allow them to walk around and do stuff; that’s just begging for trouble). I am therefore confident that Athena will allow them to go straight to the Elysian Fields. If She wants them going to Tartarus, who am I to argue? > [/heartless bastard] It’s not about their souls, it’s about mine, for killing other human beings. > [@](#): > > It’s your money, but I expect even a set of new teeth is gonna cost more than your house. So I’ll hold on for a bit until the prices come down. 🙂 > [@](#): > > So you can have two pieces of cake. Yay! He’s softening! > [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Can we just simply things and build me a medically perfect clone and swap my brain into it? Ooh, I like this option! Can I adjust my clone for esthetics as well? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/19 "2012-09-28T20:34:29Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Whole clone production, would seem to me to be no different than killing another human, which is a monstrous act no matter how cheaply or efficiently they could be produced (or humanely euthanised). Funny you should take this tone, it’s exactly the storyline **runner pat** & I bantered about briefly. How is it monstrous to kill something that _wants_ to be killed? So what if you raised/designed it that way, in the end you’re making it happy & fulfilled by euthanizing & harvesting it. Positive karma all around. Socialization, whether it fosters self-preservation or annihilates it, is just a form of brain washing that every human goes through in every society. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167/20 "2012-09-28T20:39:50Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Funny you should take this tone, it’s exactly the storyline **runner pat** & I bantered about briefly. How is it monstrous to kill something that _wants_ to be killed? So what if you raised/designed it that way, in the end you’re making it happy & fulfilled by euthanizing & harvesting it. Positive karma all around. > > Socialization, whether it fosters self-preservation or annihilates it, is just a form of brain washing that every human goes through in every society. I don’t believe in Karma or souls or heaven or hell, so that’s bye-the-bye. I do believe that the creation of a human with the desire to be killed would be a monstrous act in itself. What if we could create humans who wanted to be slaves, would you be happy with that too? Or children that wanted to be raped? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-of-these-medical-cloning-techniques-would-you-be-comfortable-allowing/636167.md?page=2)