# Which one of these, in your view, is the correct definition of the word "nation?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533 "2014-09-15T04:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ILikeForeignLanguages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc8723/32.png) [@ILikeForeignLanguages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ILikeForeignLanguages)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/1 "2014-09-15T04:13:59Z")
1. A sovereign state 2. A people group with its own native language and identity ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/2 "2014-09-15T04:38:37Z")
A glance at any dictionary will confirm that sense 2. is the older and still dominant usage. The equation of “nation” with “sovereign state” didn’t really take root until the rise of political nationalism in the 19th century, which held that each nation _should_ govern itself through a sovereign state, and that nations which did not do so were in some sense opressed, or incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/3 "2014-09-15T05:53:32Z")
Connotations and context matter a lot. I prefer definition 1. If they’re a member of the United Nations (or…should be) then they’re a nation. (There are a handful of countries the U.N. won’t admit, like Taiwan. Oh, well.) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/4 "2014-09-15T06:03:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Connotations and context matter a lot. > > I prefer definition 1. If they’re a member of the United Nations (or…should be) then they’re a nation. (There are a handful of countries the U.N. won’t admit, like Taiwan. Oh, well.) The thing is, the Taiwanese don’t consider _themselves_ a nation; they consider themselves Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/5 "2014-09-15T06:26:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Connotations and context matter a lot. > > I prefer definition 1. If they’re a member of the United Nations (or…should be) then they’re a nation. Exactly. There are numerous other definitions relating to various kinds of “cultural identity”, including identities associated with being a fanatical supporter of a particular sports team. In most cases claims of “nationalism” on cultural grounds is tantamount to wanting to be a cultural and economic backwater. It’s a collective version of libertarian lunacy, defying the concept that in unity there is strength. There is some country or other that I recall achieved pretty good success by striving for unity instead of cultural separation. The idea is expressed in their national motto: \* E pluribus unum\*. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/6 "2014-09-15T06:41:23Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The thing is, the Taiwanese don’t consider _themselves_ a nation; they consider themselves Chinese. No. I live here and you are completely wrong. They consider themselves a nation. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/7 "2014-09-15T07:00:45Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > No. I live here and you are completely wrong. They consider themselves a nation. I think we’re into circular arguments here. Obviously, Taiwan is a nation in the sense of an independent sovereign state. Equally obviously, it’s not a nation in the sense of a community characterised by (and distinguished from other nations by) common descent, language, culture, history, etc. In that sense, they are part of the Chinese nation, as are most of the denizens of the PRC. The problem with the “member of the United Nations or should be” test is that it implies that there were no nations at all before 1945, which is obviously nonsense. If we apply the test a little less literally and say that to be “nation” you need internationally-recognised sovereign independence, that implies that there was no Irish nation before 1922, no Magyar nation before 1867 or 1918 (take your pick), no German nation before 1870, no Italian nation before 1860, etc. But that’s nonsense; all of these communities were commonly regarded as, and spoken of as, “nations” well before the dates mentioned. I think there may be a divergence here between US English and other dialects. In the US, “state” primarily refers to subordinate political divisions, and not to the internationally-recognised sovereign entity. Looking for a word for the latter, Americans tend to default to “nation”, and then to assume that this is the normative use of the term, not just in the US but elsewhere. Whereas in countries with a different history, political integrity and/or political indepdence may arrive fairly late in the piece, and certainly long after the existence of the nation as a cultural entity has been universally accepted. Indeed, the case strongly made for German and Italian unification, and Irish and Hungarian independence, was that these communities _were_ long-established nations, and therefore had a moral claim to self-determination and sovereign independence. Hence it may well be that in US English, the primary sense of “nation” is the political entity, whereas in other varieties of English the primary sense is the ethnic/cultural entity. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/8 "2014-09-15T07:13:12Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I think we’re into circular arguments here. Obviously, Taiwan is a nation in the sense of an independent sovereign state. Equally obviously, it’s not a nation in the sense of a community characterised by (and distinguished from other nations by) In that sense, they are part of the Chinese nation, as are most of the denizens of the PRC. Nationhood is something that can develop, or can be forged. Taiwan has 60 years of independent history and culture to call its own, history and culture it doesn’t share with mainland China. It may not have its own language, but so what? Neither do Mexico or Australia. Besides, common descent, language, culture, history, etc. are irrelevant. If a group of people think of themselves as a nation (as per no. 2), then they’re a nation. That’s all nationhood is - thought. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/9 "2014-09-15T07:21:23Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > . . . The problem with the “member of the United Nations or should be” test is that it implies that there were no nations at all before 1945, which is obviously nonsense. . . . True, but the nations that entered were understood at the time. And before: the League of Nations had similar requirements for membership. Obviously, I’m not using that as the “definition” of a nation, but a kind of model, for purposes of understanding. France is a nation. Europe isn’t (although it may become one) and Provence is not. > [@](#): > > If we apply the test a little less literally and say that to be “nation” you need internationally-recognised sovereign independence, that implies that there was no Irish nation before 1922, no Magyar nation before 1867 or 1918 (take your pick), no German nation before 1870, no Italian nation before 1860, etc. But that’s nonsense; all of these communities were commonly regarded as, and spoken of as, “nations” well before the dates mentioned. No, I like this argument: before unity, Italy didn’t have a central government, but was governed by different entities, including outside ones such as France and Austria. There was an “idea” of nationhood, but no functional reality. This is why we speak of the Franco-Prussian War, not the Franco-German War. There was a region called Germany, but no operant German nation. > [@](#): > > . . . Hence it may well be that in US English, the primary sense of “nation” is the political entity, whereas in other varieties of English the primary sense is the ethnic/cultural entity. Whatever it’s worth, I vote for the US English connotation…not least because that’s my language. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/10 "2014-09-15T10:15:33Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > 1. A sovereign state > 2. A people group with its own native language and identity 2, for me. I mean, they’re both “correct” in different contexts, but absent any context, I would assume the second definition is meant. The first definition, I would say I’d always prefer the word “country” over “nation” precisely to avoid _that_ ambiguity (I realize that’s “country” is not itself unambiguous, as countries can be non-sovereign. But I’ll live.) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/11 "2014-09-15T17:21:39Z")
I agree with UDS. America was a nation before 1776 – our shared cultural identity (and its gradual divergence from Great Britain’s) was probably THE biggest cause of the Revolution. The Intolerable Acts just hammered the point home. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/12 "2014-09-15T17:26:07Z")
Both definitions are incorrect. #2 is closer, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/13 "2014-09-15T18:02:03Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > 1. A sovereign state > 2. A people group with its own native language and identity Number two is historically correct, but the word has changed meaning to incorporate either, with a slight advantage to number one. In a way it’s a pity, but the use of the word “state” in the name of the United States of America (and the change in that word’s meaning for the US since the Civil War) probably made the change in meaning of “nation” inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/14 "2014-09-15T18:16:27Z")
#2 is the correct definition, obviously. Otherwise the term ‘nation-state’ would be a tautology. There are nations which don’t have a state to call their own, and there are states that don’t identify themselves with a particular nation. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/15 "2014-09-15T21:31:31Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > #2 is the correct definition, obviously. . . . I disagree both with your definition of “nation” and with your definition of “obviously.” ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/16 "2014-09-15T21:35:11Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I disagree both with your definition of “nation” and with your definition of “obviously.” Why? There are states that are identified with multiple nationalities, and there are nations/nationalities that don’t have a state associated with them, so clearly a ‘state’ and a ‘nation’ are not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/17 "2014-09-15T22:24:21Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > No. I live here That’s quite a coincidence… ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/18 "2014-09-15T22:26:36Z")
“You know, sometimes words have two meanings.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/19 "2014-09-15T23:30:19Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Why? > > There are states that are identified with multiple nationalities, and there are nations/nationalities that don’t have a state associated with them, so clearly a ‘state’ and a ‘nation’ are not the same thing. To me, this depends on using words very fluidly, and, when you get too far into that, it gets Humpty-Dumpty-ish. I think it is much too dependent on context. Is “The Navajo Nation” a nation? It has some of the functions of a national self-government: borders, a police force, representatives, etc. But it is very limited in the kinds of laws it can pass, and so does not have fully-functioning nationhood. Could you give me an example of a state identified with multiple nationalities? I don’t know what this means. And, in any case, the fact that some of us here are willing to debate the matter removes it from any useful definition of “obvious.” If it were obvious, we probably wouldn’t be disagreeing. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533/20 "2014-09-16T00:01:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > To me, this depends on using words very fluidly, and, when you get too far into that, it gets Humpty-Dumpty-ish. > > I think it is much too dependent on context. Is “The Navajo Nation” a nation? It has some of the functions of a national self-government: borders, a police force, representatives, etc. But it is very limited in the kinds of laws it can pass, and so does not have fully-functioning nationhood. > > Could you give me an example of a state identified with multiple nationalities? I don’t know what this means. > > And, in any case, the fact that some of us here are willing to debate the matter removes it from any useful definition of “obvious.” If it were obvious, we probably wouldn’t be disagreeing. The Navajo are a nation because they share common descent, a common language, and a shared self-identity. They don’t have a _state_ to call their own, but they’re certainly a nation. Bolivia recently changed their name (sometime after the election of Morales in 2006) to “The Plurinational State of Bolivia”, emphasizing that it’s a single ‘state’ made up of multiple ‘nations’ (mestizo, Aymara, and Quechua, most prominently). You could say the same of plenty of other countries which are made up of multiple different linguistic and ethnic groups- India, for example, or Belgium, or a lot of African countries. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-one-of-these-in-your-view-is-the-correct-definition-of-the-word-nation/698533.md?page=2)