I dunno though, I personally see it as binary. They either approached the checkpoint correctly or they didn’t. The US troops either acted accordingly or they didn’t. I know in the real world it’s shades of grey and suppose both were at fault, but it seems more like someone fucked up and someone didn’t.
There is one item – if the photos that have been produced by la Repubblica says are what they say they are — Sgrena lied about the 300 to 400 machine gun rounds fired at her vehicle. That is, of course, unless you take the position that 296 to 396 of those rounds missed –
Cut the crap, one bullet does not a hail make.
Yeah the car doesn’t look as chunked up as I thought it would. There seemed to be just 2 holes in the windshield.
World Eater??? I’m surprised you said that. — I don’t travel down to the pit often — but I remember you from the green laser light blinding pilots’ eyes thread. If I recall — from that thread I got the impression you’re sort of the rjung of the underworld — a mini-me Ward Churchill –— or do I have the wrong guy??
Maybe the wrong guy?
What were you expecting me to say about the windshield? 
Nope. You don’t have to get Patty Herst levels of Stockholm syndrome to think “Hey, maybe my kidnappers were right when they said the Americans didn’t want to see me get home alive” when the Americans, you know, shoot at you and kill your rescuer.
I’m just saying, is all…
That’s were the “hail of bullets” type thing comes in. I don’t think she’s intentionally lying. I think she panicked after she left the frying pan and went into the fire and imagined the situation (which, and let’s be honest here folks, actually did kill the man who had just saved her life ) to be worse than it actually was. Do I think she’s a 100% credible witness? No. I’ll just cut someone who went straight from captivity to gunfire a hell of a lot of slack.
I don’t know who screwed up how. At this point, I think the Americans jumped the gun, as shown by previous incidents and the fact that they had already cleared several checkpoints, but I’m open to evidence otherwise. I certainly do not think this was an assassination attempt.
But here’s what disgusts me, the fact that people (not so much in this thread) are pitting a woman who is a victim of a targedy, who was sent from one life-threatening situation to another (neither of which were her own fault), and are using her political stance and previous writings against her, as if they were at all material to the case at hand. She’s the *victim *here folks. She’s paranoid and anti-American, yes, but when America troops have actually fired upon you, I think you’ve earned some understanding on that count, at least.
Can anyone seriously look at those pictures of her car and tell me that she has any credibility? What was it she said? “Hundreds of bullets”? Ha! A broken window, a flat tire, and a cracked windshield does not “hundreds of bullets” make. And how about the “hundreds of shell casings”? What, did they get in the car by telekenesis? The only way they could have been in the car is if they were shooting back.
That car is in better shape than most cars after a simple car wreck. If you want to see what “hundreds of bullets” do to things, watch some footage from the battle of Fallujah, where the buildings are pockmarked and holed.
The woman, by making those claims, has demonstrated a remarkable ability to lie and keep a straight face.
On the other hand, it also doesn’t look like the engine was shot up which is what the Americans claimed they targeted.
Well we know there were enough bullets to kill and injure people in the car.
I hear you. I’m inclined to agree to some extent… but…
She is certainly not responsible for being almost killed by the American soldiers in this unfortunate incident, but… I don’t think she was kidnapped from her home in Italy and forced into a hostage situation in Iraq. She went to Iraq on her own and voluntarily placed herself into a precarious situation. It’s a scary series of events that she’s lucky to have survived, but some personal responsibility must be taken by her. Or am I completely wrong here?
You’re completely wrong here. 
If she was shot while reportng on a gunfight between US troops and insurgents, or hit by a random motar, then maybe, but kidnapping non-combatants falls so outside “acceptable” warfare that one cannot be held “repsonsible” when one doesn’t cave in to terrorist threats in order to provide needed journalism in a complicated, controversal, and important world event.
I still feel it’s a bit of a naive point of view.
If I ski off piste, I may get hurt in a fall but have a right to expect to be rescued by the local ski patrol. But I must take responsibility for venturing off into unpatrolled territory.
If I enter a combat zone and make myself available to enemy combatants and then am kidnapped and held hostage, I have a right to expect to be rescued but don’t I also have to take responsibility for walking into enemy hands? Don’t forget, plenty of people (this woman among them) feel that the Iraqi insurgents are in fact the heros in this conflict, fighting against a US occupation. Reporters, in the eyes of the insurgents, are seen as fair game because they may easily be spies for the other side.
Or a meal ticket for black market weapons. Note that the “insurgents” have been kidnapping Italians at an accelerated rated this past year - why? Well the rumor is that the Italian government pays millions to these organizations for hostage release. Millions that just might fund more terrorist “projects.” Yum yum –
No. Entering a situation were an accident is likely because your stupid is totally different than entering a situation is which others may victimize you because you have a duty (such as journalism, or soldiering, for that matter) to do. There is a difference between bravery in the face of battle and bravado in everyday life. Or would you rather she gave in to terrorists?
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Cite? For Giuliana Sgrena, I mean. I’m well aware that there are those that have let their anti-Americanism distort their sense of proportion.
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Even if you can provide one (which I hope you do, for the sake of propriety), it doesn’t matter. Her political beliefs do not, in any way, excuse, explain, or mitigate what happened to her. They are immaterial. She’s the fucking victim. Why what happened and who is to blame is debateable, but pitting the victim of something this nasty is just distasteful, even if her version of events seem unlikely.
All in all, this story will take time to develop. The lady is saying some silly things, but then she is under a lot of stress. I’ll give her a pass for now.
History will help us see what really happened.
Yeah, I’m sorry, you’re right - on the evidence so far presented the stupid bitch deserved everything she got. She’s lucky her American-hating, dago arse isn’t toast.
:rolleyes:
I don’t think we know how many bullets were fired, however we do know that there was sufficient hot lead to kill one person and injure others. Exactly how many rounds to you think would be appropriate to fire at a car full of allies? 2? 10? What exactly is your point here?
I don’t believe our nation is primarily led, nor served, by trigger happy yahoos. I do, however, believe that a very large proportion of the world at large believes that we are. And that, in and of itself, is a very bad thing. At a certain point, the perception becomes the fact: what people believe about us is more important than what is actually true about us.
The cowboy belligerance and aggressive impatience of our policy makes a clear statement, we’re out to kick ass and take names, and if the names don’t always belong on our list, let God sort 'em out. There are those among us who find this sort of testosterone addled, nut scratching machismo laudable. We’re the tough guys, don’t screw around with us, or someone will get hurt. And we are none too particular about who that someone is.
I agree. The US (in the eyes of much of the world) is guilty until proven innocent here. And that’s not necessarily unfair, given that the US was the ones doing the shooting. I really hope Bush and the military makes a sincere attempt to get the facts and punish the guilty (if any). This is paticularly important in the case of Italy, who can still recall what happened when US military previously killed innocent Italians, and are realy hoping for a result more to their satisfaction this time.