I suppose the OP is sufficiently hijacked that we may as well.
If you rather live a life of prejudice – like It said, fine – by definition that’s almost impossible to correct – good luck -
Its funny how their political bias so blatantly colors their view of the troops and then they get offended when we point that out.
Equally funny is that your (plural) views are colored by political bias as well.
I always love it when this claim gets trotted out. “My conclusion is right! You’re an idiot otherwise!” Extra points for claiming to be an “informed person” before the investigation and without being there.
Prove it. Or, as you say, shut the fuck up.
Sure, right after you prove that "…their political bias so blatantly colors their view of the troops… "
“No informed person can come to any other conclusion, if you don’t like it, if you want to keep swallowing patriotic BS then go ahead. It does not alter the reality of the situation that US soldiers are killing innocent people in avoidable incidents like this one.”
Yes the facts whether you support / don’t support Bush, one can acknowledge a lot of “accidents” are occurring in Iraq.
Now, put up or shut up.
wrt: the concept that a tire blowing at 100 mph= huge accident. I’ve had a tire blow out while on the highway doing 80, no big accident, no rollover etc. the wheel got bent and had to be replaced but no other damage. when I was a child, my dad was driving us on the highway, he was no doubt going in excess of 80 (He drove fast all the time) and two tires (defective) blew out, once again, no big accident etc.
only opinion on the rest of this mess is “I’ll wait til after the investigation, thanks”.
Put up what?
Are you suggesting that this is a politically biased statement? Us soldiers aren’t accidently killing innocent civilians, but blinding bias towards Bush makes people say they are?
WTF?
So I’ve said I attempt to seperate incidents from politics, I’m sure many people do. Do you have some type of related point?
At the same time of course political bias exists, I just found it funny that many on the right always screaming “political bias” when they’re only participating in the same type of mudslinging. I guess the point is lost on you.
<shrug>
Oh come on dude. The from the post where I got the first quote the dude is suggesting the troops are “putting their own lives ahead of civilians” at “result is a lot of innocent deaths” and that “soldiers (tend) to go for safety first but that does not make it right or supportable”.
And the quote I got from you state as a fact that depending on your political views you can acknowledge what an “accident” is. And I assume from your quotes around accident, that whether it’s an accident or not is also determined by your political views.
Now, you show me where on the right they tend to blame the troops and call them “triggerhappy kiddies” or accuse them of being cowardly at the sake of innocents. It may happen, but I sure as hell don’t see it anywhere, much less anything near those that dissaprove of the war.
Er… The bias of the right is to almost always wave off incidents like shooting Italian agents (hello? Did you even bother to read this thread?) as the fault of the person shot and not the guy who pulled the trigger once the US government is involved in any form. Of course the bias of the right isn’t the same as a bias of the left. Heh, silly guy.
For crying out loud - this isn’t the first incident of this type, they are happening all the damn time to the Iraqi’s. You familiar with the term ‘spray and pray’? A term used by the troops themselves for their response to a threat, a response that kills civilians?
I’ve seen many news reports on US tactics, inclusing in-depth criticism by senior British Army commanders on the spot, I follow the situation closely, so I damn well know from evidence that US checkpoint protocols and ‘spray and pray’ responses to perceived threats as well as actual attacks are causing unnecessary deaths. So I am damn well informed - a lot more informed than most. Read the Christian Science report.
And i’m also aware that no matter what the circumstances - various weddings bombed, Canadian army bombed, wounded prisoners executed in cold blood, prisoners left to freeze to death in crates, it’s never, ever the fault of the US.
Add the Abu Graib whitewash on top and I have no confidence at all in any investigation. It’ll be a joint politically convenient cover-up with the blame shared and maybe some poor sucker made scapegoat.
“Spray and Pray” is most often used as a derisive description of anyone attempting to hit something with a long automatic weapons fire burst. It is not an apt description of the US response whether that response was right or wrong.
You know intra-service rivalry between nations is never pretty. It’s also rarely relevant. the British are not have anywhere near the numbers of suicide bombers charge at them that US soldiers are facing. A couple of high death count hits on the British and cars approaching British checkpoints better learn to approach with caustion.
I have read it. Did you read this one?
What irritates me is you assume that US soldiers are just choosing to be sloppy. Maybe, just maybe determing what car is a confused civilian and what car is a suicide bomber coming to kill you is a bit harder than you assume.
It’s also irritating that so many folks assume that only the US military has fuck ups. The US military is larger than most, so it gets proporationally more, but other militaries screw things up as well.
British soldier shoots a British soldier
Canadian troops in Afghanistan occassionally accidentally fire their weapons
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1076930504164_2?s_name=&no_ads=
Past mistakes by a military organization do not automatically equal guilt in a given incident. You are passing judgement before the investigation is complete and you are putting forth the silly idea that anyone who disagrees with you for doing so is uninformed.
I dunno, that doesn’t seem too far fetched. I think troop safety is extremely important, but we should still be able to determine of they fucked up or we’re merely defending themselves. Only time, and an investigation will tell.
Actually it’s devoid of your political views that one should be able to acknowledge an accident. I.E. “I support the war and Bush, but they fucked up” or “even though I think Bush is insane, those soldiers were only defending themselves.”
No, I just throw them on to add a little sarcasm.
If repubs went around doing the same things as dems, wouldn’t they just be dems? The point is their biases are going to be pretty much the opposite of any dem one.
Blackclaw - you’re so far up Bush’s ass I feel unclean talking to you. Fine - US soldiers are all demi-gods, all the criticisms from other mililaries are just penis envy and all those US troops saying they ‘spray and pray’ are commie nazi pinkoes. Happy now are we?
Um… no. You see I’m NOT a Bush supporter. Never mentioned Bush in my post. Think I’m just making that up? Search the board for my name and “Why I won’t vote for Bush.”
Nor did I ever make any proclaimation of the soldiers in this incident being innocent or fault free. The whole point is, we don’t have all the facts yet. Your post provides a wonderful example of why jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts leads to one looking like an ignorant idiot. Given how bad you are at making correct assumptions, I recommend you actually act like an informed person and wait for more information about the incident to be uncovered.
Troops exist to be in the line of fire, that’s why they wear distinct uniforms and deliberately make themselves targets. It is to minimize the damage to the civilians. If you’re showing a preference for military lives over civilian lives, then this defeats the purpose of having a military at all and we may as well make wiping out the civilian population, versus defeating the combatants, our goal.
Enjoy,
Steven
I’ve actually read that, and before I address the specifics I have to say Mr. Berlusconi has been particularly unhelpful in this situation. I read an article I believe yesterday where he basically demanded an apology and punishment for the people responsible. Eventhough he has no more objective idea as to who was really at fault than any of us. It’s just bad behavior to demand someone be punished before we know if it is their fault.
As for the account, again, the person involved isn’t the most trustworthy. It takes a big man to admit you (or someone you were riding with, a comrade) made a mistake that got themselves (or someone else) killed. And just because he describes the incident that way doesn’t mean we actually know it happened that way. Again, it is just one man’s word, and the U.S. soldiers have given a very different account. And from what I’ve seen Sgrena has given a different account. And if the Italian agent hadn’t died I believe he probably would have given a different account.
Ultimately I only think there are two outcomes we will see:
-
The Pentagon finds U.S. soldiers at fault, Italy receives many full apologies. This may or not mean anything, because the Pentagon has in the past left soldiers out to dry to appease allies, even if it wasn’t the “just” thing to do.
-
We will never have an ultimately conclusive result. Both sides will offer widely differing stories and there is little to no way to collaborate these. Most Army road checks consist of a group of soldiers standing by the road, with some sort of transportation vehicle, it’s not like these are high tech areas where we will find incontrovertible video evidence. More than likely there is little physical evidence that can prove on thing or the other, we’re just going to have to listen to both accounts and decide which one is the most likely.
And then of course both sides have reason to lie. The Italians wouldn’t want to admit it was their fault, and the Americans wouldn’t want to get prosecuted.
As it is I know the decision of this forum already. There are very few rational and moderate people that post here. Most people that post here are far-leftists that will twist any fact or make any argument as long as it makes the United States look bad.
I also don’t understand people constantly bitching about “accidents” in Iraq. People throw up these accidents like “I told you so” incidents. You’re not “telling” anyone anything. Everyone involved with the decision to invade Iraq knew that military collateral damage would occur, it occurs in every war. Virtually everyone who supports the war in Iraq feels the innate bonuses that came from removing Saddam and giving democracy to the Iraqi people justifies the unfortunate collateral damage, those that oppose the Iraq war feel you cannot justify the collateral damage. This is an impossible impasse and constantly bringing up accidents isn’t going to change anyone’s mind.