# Which side champions 'individualism' more - liberals or conservatives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654 "2015-12-17T01:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/21 "2015-12-17T18:06:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hardly. It’s not Democrats who tried to pass a flag-burning amendment. But it IS Democrats and other liberals who shout down conservative speakers on college campuses. > **[Williams College Group Disinvites Conservative Speaker After Protests](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/10/21/williams-college-group-disinvites-conservative-speaker-protests/)** > > A student group at Williams College disinvited a conservative speaker after students protested the invitation. [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/nyregion/rice-backs-out-of-rutgers-speech-after-student-protests.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/nyregion/rice-backs-out-of-rutgers-speech-after-student-protests.html?_r=0) > **[Dis-invited: 4 Conservatives Not Welcome To Speak On College Campuses -...](https://futurefemaleleader.com/disinvited-conservatives-not-welcome/)** > > Conservative speakers on campuses are becoming less and less frequent, and it has become a sad trend that when these conservative speakers are invited, > [@monstro](#): > > Individualism makes me think of non-conformity, non-reverence of authority, and self-determination. These are not things that I associate with conservative thought, but I don’t think liberals have excusive ownership of these ideas. On the other hand, individualism makes me think of a man’s house is his castle; the right to be left alone; etc. By the way, I would honestly like to know how you think things like Obamacare with its attendant fines, gun regulation, raising taxes, etc. square with non-conformity, non-reverence of authority, and self-determination. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/22 "2015-12-17T18:13:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hardly. It’s not Democrats who tried to pass a flag-burning amendment. Not to mention trying to ban God knows how many books from school libraries. The idea that conservatives are stronger in regards to “free speech” is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/23 "2015-12-17T18:23:11Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The “sugared porridge” eddy, the “cinnamon porridge” eddy, etc. Adorable. Are you seriously suggesting that liberals are stronger advocates **in general** for the idea of unfettered private property rights than conservatives are? Because that seems to be one of the most basic divides between left and right. Personally I find advocacy for unfettered property rights to be repellantly anti-human; it’s not at all something I think is good. The fact that under highly specific circumstances liberals are willing to allow possession of some property that conservatives won’t in no way invalidates the general tendencies of conservatives to idolize property in a way that liberals generally don’t. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/24 "2015-12-17T18:24:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Liberals typically champion individualism when it comes to LGBT issues, abortion, not requiring voter ID, illegal immigration, legalization of marijuana/other drugs, etc. LGBT issues are good for LGBTs and don’t hurt others. Abortion is a personal freedom which doesn’t harm other citizens. Encouraging voting is good for democracy and hurts only those who resent people unlikely to vote their way, Marijuana is, if a sin, a victimless sin. > [@Velocity](#): > > …but go against individualism when it comes to gun ownership, the teaching of creationism, healthcare (ACA or single payer = everyone must acquire insurance or participate in the system,) compulsory school attendance, higher taxation, etc. Guns often kill or injure people who don’t own the guns. Teaching creationism spoils the education of our children and others’ children – ignorance is bad for society and democracy. Providing healthcare to others is charitable and good for society. (Do you need an explanation why participation needs to be mandatory for UHC to be effective?) Do you see the difference? “Freedom” is a two-edged sword. Your freedom to smoke robs me of the freedom to go to a smoke-free restaurant. Your freedom to carry a gun reduces my freedom to feel safe on the streets. Your freedom not to buy health insurance robs me of the freedom to live under a financially sound UHC system. The government needs funds for education, healthcare, etc., but “Higher taxation” is a very bizarre way to encapsulate that “debate.” In fact, Federal spending consists primarily of military spending and obligations like SocSec, debt interest, and veterans’ benefits. Since liberals tend to be more rational than right-wingers, naturally they want to fund the spending. Right-wing tax cuts are based in large part on the “Starve the Beast” philosophy. On many issues I’m more of a centrist, in principle, than a liberal. School vouchers make sense in theory. But in practice in today’s America they are a way to further impoverish the public schools that most children will attend, while subsidizing religious schools and families that can afford private schools. (This is a simplification, and I’d support vouchers if these objections were eliminated.) In principle, I would oppose government enforcement of minimum wages and employee safety etc. if I thought the free market could fil the gap. In practice, due to various reasons including the disempowerment of labor unions, it cannot. TL;DR: Liberals want individuals to flourish in a benevolent environment, with regulations to account for external costs like pollution. For the right-wing, individualism is defined by unfettered Ayn Rand-style dog-eat-dog capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/25 "2015-12-17T18:26:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Liberals typically champion individualism when it comes to LGBT issues, abortion, not requiring voter ID, illegal immigration, legalization of marijuana/other drugs, etc. LGBT issues are good for LGBTs and don’t hurt others. Abortion is a personal freedom which doesn’t harm other citizens. Encouraging voting is good for democracy and hurts only those who resent people unlikely to vote their way, Marijuana is, if a sin, a victimless sin. > [@Velocity](#): > > …but go against individualism when it comes to gun ownership, the teaching of creationism, healthcare (ACA or single payer = everyone must acquire insurance or participate in the system,) compulsory school attendance, higher taxation, etc. Guns often kill or injure people who don’t own the guns. Teaching creationism spoils the education of our children and others’ children – ignorance is bad for society and democracy. Providing healthcare to others is charitable and good for society. (Do you need an explanation why participation needs to be mandatory for UHC to be effective?) Do you see the difference? “Freedom” is a two-edged sword. Your freedom to smoke robs me of the freedom to go to a smoke-free restaurant. Your freedom to carry a gun reduces my freedom to feel safe on the streets. Your freedom not to buy health insurance robs me of the freedom to live under a financially sound UHC system. The government needs funds for education, healthcare, etc. but “Higher taxation” is a very bizarre way to encapsulate that “debate.” Federal spending consists primarily of military spending and obligations like SocSec, debt interest, and veterans’ benefits. Since liberals tend to be more rational than right-wingers, naturally they want to fund the spending. Right-wing tax cuts are based in large part on the “Starve the Beast” philosophy. On many issues I’m more of a centrist, in principle, than a liberal. School vouchers make sense in theory. In practice they would be a way to further impoverish the public schools that most children will attend, while subsidizing religious schools and families that can afford private schools. (This is a simplification, and I’d support vouchers if these objections were eliminated.) I would oppose government enforcement of minimum wages and employee safety etc. if I thought the free market could fil the gap. In practice, due to various reasons including the disempowerment of labor unions, it cannot. TL;DR. Liberals want individuals to flourish in a free benevolent environment, with regulations to account for external costs like pollution. For the right-wing, indicidualism is defined by unfettered Ayn Rand-style do-eat-dog capitalism. BTW, in your list of freedoms, left-vs-right, I didn’t address free speech becuase … > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The idea that conservatives are stronger in regards to “free speech” is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/26 "2015-12-17T18:59:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (Do you need an explanation why participation needs to be mandatory for UHC to be effective?) Forcing one person to buy a product to benefit another person is wrong. Do you understand why? Slee ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/27 "2015-12-17T19:02:10Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Forcing one person to buy a product to benefit another person is wrong. Do you understand why? > > Slee I don’t think that’s what’s happening. We aren’t forcing anyone to buy anything, you just forgo a penalty if you don’t do so. What we are doing is reducing the number of people who consume health care and don’t pay for it. One way or another, nearly all of us require health care. Unless you’re insured or wealthy enough to self-insure, your care will be paid by the rest of us. The ACA just gives you incentive and the ability to buy health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/28 "2015-12-17T19:02:42Z")
It would be too hard to try to characterize which group’s interests are “more” individualistic and which ones are less. But I consider suicide to be entirely and wholly within the domain of my own body. It physically affects no one else, and no one else is qualified to determine what’s going on in my own head. Of all the things a person owns and controls, an argument can be made that everything else except the body they are born with belongs to someone else. Who’s more hostile to the idea of suicide? That side champions individualism the least. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/29 "2015-12-17T19:16:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t think that’s what’s happening. We aren’t forcing anyone to buy anything, you just forgo a penalty if you \*\*don’t do so. \*\* Assuming you mean “do” not “don’t” - a penalty for not doing something is the definition of coercion. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/30 "2015-12-17T19:16:32Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Forcing one person to buy a product to benefit another person is wrong. Do you understand why? > > Slee Are you one of the [checks forum] geniuses who thinks all taxes are theft? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/31 "2015-12-17T19:18:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Assuming you mean “do” not “don’t” - a penalty for not doing something is the definition of coercion. Not really. If you can afford to pay the penalty and think you can self-insure, knock yourself out. If you can’t afford the penalty and can’t self-insure, you have a chance to buy affordable insurance. You aren’t coerced to do anything, you can make whatever choice you feel appropriate. What we need to do is reduce those that get their health care for free and drive up the costs for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/32 "2015-12-17T19:23:00Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > But it IS Democrats and other liberals who shout down conservative speakers on college campuses. > > [http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/21/williams-college-group-disinvites-conservative-speaker-protests/](http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/21/williams-college-group-disinvites-conservative-speaker-protests/) > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/nyregion/rice-backs-out-of-rutgers-speech-after-student-protests.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/nyregion/rice-backs-out-of-rutgers-speech-after-student-protests.html?_r=0) > > [Dis-invited: 4 Conservatives Not Welcome To Speak On College Campuses - Future Female Leaders](http://futurefemaleleader.com/disinvited-conservatives-not-welcome/) True. So we can say that free speech is neither a conservative value nor a liberal one. The claim I responded to was: > [@](#): > > Conservatives typically champion individualism when it comes to free speech… It’s not as though shutting down controversial speech on college campuses is a liberal monopoly itself. Try Daniel Pipes, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/33 "2015-12-17T19:32:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not really. If you can afford to pay the penalty and think you can self-insure, knock yourself out. In just the same way, I am not forcing any of my students to pray. If they don’t mind serving an hour’s detention, they can go ahead and refuse. No one could object to that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/34 "2015-12-17T19:40:08Z")
You don’t have taxing power over your students. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/35 "2015-12-17T20:19:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hardly. It’s not Democrats who tried to pass a flag-burning amendment. That’s not exactly true. The last time the amendment came up for a vote, in the 109th Congress, 77 House Democrats and 13 Senate Democrats voted for it. Including the current Democratic Senate Minority Leader. [http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll296.xml](http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll296.xml) > **[U.S. Senate: U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 2nd Session](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1092/vote_109_2_00189.htm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00189)** > > roll\_call\_vote.xml ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/36 "2015-12-17T20:34:55Z")
True. But I think you would agree that it is _primarily_ Republicans who are in favor, yes? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/37 "2015-12-17T20:44:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Liberals typically champion individualism when it comes to LGBT issues, abortion, not requiring voter ID, illegal immigration, legalization of marijuana/other drugs, etc…but go against individualism when it comes to gun ownership, the teaching of creationism, healthcare (ACA or single payer = everyone must acquire insurance or participate in the system,) compulsory school attendance, higher taxation, etc. > Conservatives typically champion individualism when it comes to free speech, gun ownership, creationism, homeschooling or vouchers for private schools, lower taxation, choosing not to have health insurance, etc…but go against individualism on illegal immigration, SSM, abortion, banning marijuana/other drugs, requiring voter ID, etc. > Both sides claim to oppose governmental wiretapping, infringement on civil liberties or spying on citizens, even if some secretly support it. > So, all said and done, which side is more pro-individualism? (Note that I’m not commenting on whether individualism is inherently good or bad.) You are misusing the word “individualism” by equating it with “individual liberty.” The opposite of individualism is not regulation, but conformity. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/38 "2015-12-17T20:55:03Z")
Hmmm. Maybe a better question would be “which side do individualists mostly prefer?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/39 "2015-12-17T20:57:35Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Hmmm. Maybe a better question would be “which side do individualists mostly prefer?” Their own. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/40 "2015-12-17T21:02:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > True. But I think you would agree that it is _primarily_ Republicans who are in favor, yes? Primarily, yes. But the Amendment only missed the 2/3 threshold in the Senate by one vote, so it could be fairly be considered a bipartisan effort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654.md?page=3)