# Which side champions 'individualism' more - liberals or conservatives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654 "2015-12-17T01:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/41 "2015-12-17T21:05:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In just the same way, I am not forcing any of my students to pray. If they don’t mind serving an hour’s detention, they can go ahead and refuse. No one could object to that. > > Regards, > Shodan Don’t be silly. Nobody is harmed when students don’t pray. When people don’t provide for their health care responsibly, we all pay and are thus harmed by it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/42 "2015-12-17T21:44:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not really. If you can afford to pay the penalty and think you can self-insure, knock yourself out. By this logic, nobody is forcing drivers to comply with stop signs or red lights, as long as they can afford to pay the fines. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/43 "2015-12-17T22:35:51Z")
From what I can tell, the left generally favors some degree of broad individualism while the right favors selective individualism, where personal freedom is a commodity (you are welcome to have as much individualism as you can afford to pay for). ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/44 "2015-12-18T03:58:51Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > No, it isn’t. [Yes it is.](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-politics/#3) ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/45 "2015-12-18T04:04:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Uh, no. Which side is it that vilifies Mexicans, Muslims, and LGBT? It was Ike that brought us the socialist Interstate system. George W. Bush championed the expansion of the socialist Medicare system to include prescription drugs. > > Of course it is the left that is the true champion of individualism and all that is right and good. Of course it is good to not force a woman to complete a pregnancy, of course it is good to allow people to marry the person they love. At some point resistance to same sex marriage will seem as quaint as resistance to mixed-race marriage does today. > > It isn’t anti-individual to favor higher taxes, it is being responsible about paying one’s bills. You don’t eat at a restaurant and act surprised when you get the bill, neither should you be surprised at being asked to pay for government services that you consume. The Reagan mantra was “there’s a free lunch and we’re going to eat it”, which is not only anti-individualist but also quite childish. > > It isn’t anti-individual to favor gun control, it celebrates the individual by trying to reduce their chances of being murdered. > > It isn’t anti-individual to not want creationism in schools, it is just a recognition that schools not teach matter that is demonstrably false. > > It isn’t anti-individual to oppose school vouchers, it is merely recognition that pro-voucher people want to weaken the public school system, the backbone of society. Everything you labeled as not being anti-individual is in fact anti-individual. But your breathless admiration of the speaks to very clouded judgement. Neither Ike nor Bush (41 or 43) were conservative by the by. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/46 "2015-12-18T04:12:22Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > Socially, the right champions conservatism and conformity to societal traditions, while the left seeks to allow people to be individuals with their own unique viewpoints, freedom of religion and so forth. The left champions PC culture, where people are ostracized for deviating from acceptable opinion. In much of Europe this censoring of thought has the force of law. You claim the left values freedom of religion, but the left lashes out at religious business owners who refuse to serve same sex couples. It lashes out at religious people who oppose abortion, hence the “war on women” canard. The left in no way values diversity of opinion, only diversity of skin tone and sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/47 "2015-12-18T04:21:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t think that’s what’s happening. We aren’t forcing anyone to buy anything, you just forgo a penalty if you don’t do so. What we are doing is reducing the number of people who consume health care and don’t pay for it. One way or another, nearly all of us require health care. Unless you’re insured or wealthy enough to self-insure, your care will be paid by the rest of us. The ACA just gives you incentive and the ability to buy health insurance. In a free society, nobody would be forced to pay for another’s health care. You wrote “your care will be paid by the rest of us”. If that never happened in the first place, the raison d’etre for the ACA as you stated it is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/48 "2015-12-18T04:23:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Are you one of the [checks forum] geniuses who thinks all taxes are theft? What else do you call taking money people don’t want to part with? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/49 "2015-12-18T04:28:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Don’t be silly. Nobody is harmed when students don’t pray. That’s your opinion. I disagree. But I won’t force others to pray just because I think they should. Conversely, you shouldn’t force people to do things you find beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/50 "2015-12-18T05:09:16Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > What else do you call taking money people don’t want to part with? What do you call people who take services and don’t pay for them? The absence of taxes would either mean the absence of services…or theft. You really don’t have to pay taxes: there are ways of disappearing. And, in fact, even so, you’ll receive services. If you’re hurt, you’ll be treated. The “taxation is theft” fantasy is an attack on the principles of civilization itself. It is not a convincing political philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/51 "2015-12-18T08:35:51Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > The left champions PC culture, where people are ostracized for deviating from acceptable opinion. In much of Europe this censoring of thought has the force of law. > > You claim the left values freedom of religion, but the left lashes out at religious business owners who refuse to serve same sex couples. It lashes out at religious people who oppose abortion, hence the “war on women” canard. > > The left in no way values diversity of opinion, only diversity of skin tone and sexual orientation. You misunderstand the meaning of “diversity of opinion”. A business owner refusing to serve homosexuals is not an opinion, it is an action. An adverse action. Opinions are just fine, as long as they do not result in an adverse effect. The left advocates tolerance, but trying to hide behind the vestments your buggerist priest to further intolerance trespasses the frontier of freedom of religion. You are welcome to _believe_ whatever the fuck you want to believe, but using your beliefs to justify adverse behavior violates the general principle of tolerance. There is no double standard here. And when you speak of “lashing out” at opponents of abortion, should we discuss who plays the violent action card in that game? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/52 "2015-12-18T16:22:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What do you call people who take services and don’t pay for them? The absence of taxes would either mean the absence of services…or theft. > > You really don’t have to pay taxes: there are ways of disappearing. And, in fact, even so, you’ll receive services. If you’re hurt, you’ll be treated. > > The “taxation is theft” fantasy is an attack on the principles of civilization itself. It is not a convincing political philosophy. You failed to answer the question. If money is taken from a person who doesn’t want to part with it, how is that not theft? Don’t skirt the question, answer please. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/53 "2015-12-18T16:33:28Z")
He’s not skirting the question. He’s not answering it because it’s moronic. It’s not theft because _it is legal_. Theft is not. You might as well ask why it’s not theft if a repo man comes and takes your car away even though you don’t want to part with it. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/54 "2015-12-18T16:37:19Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > You misunderstand the meaning of “diversity of opinion”. A business owner refusing to serve homosexuals is not an opinion, it is an action. An adverse action. Opinions are just fine, as long as they do not result in an adverse effect. The left advocates tolerance, but trying to hide behind the vestments your buggerist priest to further intolerance trespasses the frontier of freedom of religion. You are welcome to _believe_ whatever the fuck you want to believe, but using your beliefs to justify adverse behavior violates the general principle of tolerance. There is no double standard here. You wasted no time insulting people. Very classy. Diversity doesn’t mean anything if everybody has to act the way you deem okay. The idea that a baker or caterer refusing to service a gay wedding imposes an adverse impact on anybody is risible. Your post essentially proves my point, freedom of religion and diversity of opinion is of no value to the left. [QUOTE=eschereal] when you speak of “lashing out” at opponents of abortion, should we discuss who plays the violent action card in that game? [/QUOTE] Yes, let’s have that discussion. Every abortion ends in the murder of a child. The body count of opponents of abortion isn’t even close. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/55 "2015-12-18T16:39:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He’s not skirting the question. He’s not answering it because it’s moronic. It’s not theft because _it is legal_. Theft is not. You might as well ask why it’s not theft if a repo man comes and takes your car away even though you don’t want to part with it. Who deems what is and is not legal? It’s the same people who exact taxation. You see no conflict of intrest? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/56 "2015-12-18T16:43:08Z")
Yes. We call it “government.” ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/57 "2015-12-18T16:50:35Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Who deems what is and is not legal? It’s the same people who exact taxation. You see no conflict of intrest? Anarchy is becoming a political movement again? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/58 "2015-12-18T17:31:19Z")
It’s not as if private property is anything more than a legal fiction to begin with. You own your house because it says so in a government record somewhere. If the government changes the record, it won’t be yours any more. Same thing for money in a bank account. Scary when you think of it, but true. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/59 "2015-12-18T18:32:36Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > You wasted no time insulting people. Very classy. You post vacuous boilerplate, yet _you_ accuse _me_ of being insulting? My apologies for my tactlessness, but thank you for the snert. > [@](#): > > Diversity doesn’t mean anything if everybody has to act the way you deem okay. The idea that a baker or caterer refusing to service a gay wedding imposes an adverse impact on anybody is risible. > > Your post essentially proves my point, freedom of religion and diversity of opinion is of no value to the left. You want freedom of religion to be a white card. You want it to mean that you can behave in whatever manner pleases you and name your behavior as according to divine edict. That no one else’s freedom matters but your own. I am not convinced that you even understand the very concept of liberty in general. There must be balance to freedom, a consideration toward each other’s needs, or it is of no value. In other words, the right seems to want to destroy freedom with more freedom, whereas the left seems to want to preserve it through restraint and dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/60 "2015-12-18T18:52:06Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > Economically, the right champions “rugged individualism” that’s a form of self-reliance. The left is focused on how we as a society can collectively meet everyone’s minimum needs (while still allowing for entrepreneurship and competition within that framework, if democratic socialism instead of communism). > > Socially, the right champions conservatism and conformity to societal traditions, while the left seeks to allow people to be individuals with their own unique viewpoints, freedom of religion and so forth. This is the best answer so far - though there are forms of authoritarianism right and left that have no room for individualism of any sort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654.md?page=4)