# Which side champions 'individualism' more - liberals or conservatives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654 "2015-12-17T01:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/161 "2015-12-23T00:07:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Which taxes? I actually don’t think any taxes are forced. Which ones do you believe are forced? Income tax, FICA tax, sales tax, etc., etc. None of those are voluntary. > [@Bone](#): > > On a separate meta point, If you insist on defining taxation as theft, that’s fine, but it adds no value to a discussion as it’s not informative, is non-standard, and is in no way actionable. It uses words with given negative connotation in an effort to elicit an emotional response that falls flat because it’s nonsense. Sure, taxation is theft, have a cookie, and I want to call all things that are red, blue instead. I’m not defining taxation as theft. I’m defining theft as the taking of another’s property against his or her will. I’m saying taxation is an instance of theft. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/162 "2015-12-23T00:08:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Which should indicate to you that taxation is not theft but a voluntary arrangement; every country has it. Taxation is not voluntary. Every country has it because there will always be people who will take other’s property if they can. All that proves is that theft is common place. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/163 "2015-12-23T00:24:41Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Except there’s no reason to think every industry would become incredibly fractured. It’s an unfounded fear. > > And people who do want to cater a same sex wedding will be there to pick up the business other people pass on. Rather than a fear, it’s a hypothetical examination of how your version of freedom would play out. The efforts of Jackie Robinson and others to combat bigotry eventually led to the combination of leagues and the attainment of MLB records by legendary players such as Hank Aaron. There’s a niche market for it that someone could fill, but bigotry in the name of freedom is still bigotry. > [@](#): > > Where can I move that doesn’t collect taxation? That’s basically the old “love or leave it” type thinking. You don’t have to love it, but I hear there’s offshore tax havens. You might check that out. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/164 "2015-12-23T00:35:19Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > Rather than a fear, it’s a hypothetical examination of how your version of freedom would play out. The efforts of Jackie Robinson and others to combat bigotry eventually led to the combination of leagues and the attainment of MLB records by legendary players such as Hank Aaron. > > There’s a niche market for it that someone could fill, but bigotry in the name of freedom is still bigotry. And the suppression of freedom in the name of anti-bigotry is still the suppression of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/165 "2015-12-23T00:43:16Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > And the suppression of freedom in the name of anti-bigotry is still the suppression of freedom. And the suppression of freedom in the name of traffic lights and speed laws is still… If you don’t like all these encumbrances of civilization, I suggest a desert island. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/166 "2015-12-23T00:56:57Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > … If you insist on defining taxation as theft, that’s fine, but it adds no value to a discussion as it’s not informative, is non-standard, and is in no way actionable. It uses words with given negative connotation in an effort to elicit an emotional response that falls flat because it’s nonsense. Sure, taxation is theft, have a cookie, and I want to call all things that are red, blue instead. Well, we may disagree on most issues, but thank you for that excellent and succinct summary. My further two cents … > [@Waymore](#): > > Taxes are a form of theft because it involves forcibly taking another person’s property. There’s no disputing that, not sensibly anyway. Ummm… yes, there is. One was just made, above. Seemed pretty sensible to me. What possible point is there to putting that label on it? I might feel like saying that “taxation is like an aardvark” and that’s just about equally as useful. Maybe you should have just said that you don’t like paying taxes, which is at least a semantically coherent sentence. But calling it “theft” conveys nothing except a comical failure to understand the value proposition. I’ve already pointed out that you’re quite free to go live someplace where there are no taxes and no public services, like a deserted island in the middle of the ocean, or become a homeless bum. The fact that you don’t like those options doesn’t make them “far-fetched” – they’re possible, you just don’t like them, whereas the ideas of government functioning without revenue, or any civilized society functioning without government, are not within the realm of possible reality at all. If you actually have a coherent thought on the matter perhaps you’d let us know what it is. Because otherwise it sounds just like the rantings we get from the worst of the fringe extremists shrieking on street corners who declare themselves personal sovereign states over whom the government has no authority. You should probably make an effort not to be confused with one of those. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/167 "2015-12-23T00:58:58Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > And the suppression of freedom in the name of traffic lights and speed laws is still… > > If you don’t like all these encumbrances of civilization, I suggest a desert island. Well, I think the constant response of “if you don’t like it then live on a desert island” is at least a partial answer to the question which is the title of this thread. Certainly isn’t the left. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/168 "2015-12-23T01:00:15Z")
Being forced to drive on the right side of roads and streets is tyranny. It’s compelling me to do something I don’t want to do. Traffic lights are slavery. Speed limits are fascism. All of these restrict my freedom. BFD. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/169 "2015-12-23T01:10:21Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Ummm… yes, there is. One was just made, above. Seemed pretty sensible to me. > > What possible point is there to putting that label on it? I might feel like saying that “taxation is like an aardvark” and that’s just about equally as useful. Maybe you should have just said that you don’t like paying taxes, which is at least a semantically coherent sentence. > > But calling it “theft” conveys nothing except a comical failure to understand the value proposition. I’ve already pointed out that you’re quite free to go live someplace where there are no taxes and no public services, like a deserted island in the middle of the ocean, or become a homeless bum. The fact that you don’t like those options doesn’t make them “far-fetched” – they’re possible, you just don’t like them, whereas the ideas of government functioning without revenue, or any civilized society functioning without government, are not within the realm of possible reality at all. > > If you actually have a coherent thought on the matter perhaps you’d let us know what it is. Because otherwise it sounds just like the rantings we get from the worst of the fringe extremists shrieking on street corners who declare themselves personal sovereign states over whom the government has no authority. You should probably make an effort not to be confused with one of those. I’ve made a very simple claim. Taking property by force is theft. Taxation is taking property by force. Taxation is theft. It’s a basic syllogism. Nothing outlandish in a syllogism. Nothing in you wrote above rebuts that. It’s just more evidence of your inability to brook a dissenting opinion. In the thread on criminalizing hate speech, you came out in favor of hate speech laws. Do you think it would be wise to penalize somebody who spreads the idea that taxation is theft? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/170 "2015-12-23T01:19:16Z")
Taking property by force is not theft. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/171 "2015-12-23T01:40:40Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Well, I think the constant response of “if you don’t like it then live on a desert island” is at least a partial answer to the question which is the title of this thread. No, it’s the logical and inevitable answer to what to do if you don’t want to participate in civilized society. As I said, your position on taxation resembles that of the worst of the fringe extremists shrieking on street corners who declare themselves personal sovereign states over whom the government has no authority. Yet they never actually leave the safety and comforts of the country they’re complaining about, and they seem to have no problem freeloading on the public infrastructure that they don’t want to pay for. > [@Waymore](#): > > In the thread on criminalizing hate speech, you came out in favor of hate speech laws. Do you think it would be wise to penalize somebody who spreads the idea that taxation is theft? So far you’ve been factually wrong about absolutely everything I’ve ever seen you post here, so it’s not surprising that you don’t understand what hate speech laws are, their fundamental purpose, and what they apply to. As for your ridiculous “taxation is theft” mantra, obviously no one here thinks you should be “penalized”, but there seems to be a consensus that you should be ridiculed. Again, if you do have a coherent and constructive thought on the matter of taxation, tell us what it is. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/172 "2015-12-23T01:51:18Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Well, I think the constant response of “if you don’t like it then live on a desert island” is at least a partial answer to the question which is the title of this thread. Certainly isn’t the left. A desert island is the only place that I can think of that would make you happy as you don’t like taxation. Let me know someplace that both isn’t a desert island and doesn’t have taxation, then move there if you want to be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/173 "2015-12-23T01:52:48Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Taking property by force is theft. Question for you. Let’s say I own an expensive car. One day, another driver, acting carelessly, crashes into my car and totals it. He denies any responsibility for the wreck, and refuses to pay for repairs. I take him to court, and the judge finds in my favor, and forces the other driver to make restitution. The other driver’s property has been taken from him by force. Is it proper, therefore, to say that I stole his money? If not, then your definition of “theft” appears to be defective. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/174 "2015-12-23T01:53:29Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No, it’s the logical and inevitable answer to what to do if you don’t want to participate in civilized society. As I said, your position on taxation resembles that of the worst of the fringe extremists shrieking on street corners who declare themselves personal sovereign states over whom the government has no authority. Yet they never actually leave the safety and comforts of the country they’re complaining about, and they seem to have no problem freeloading on the public infrastructure that they don’t want to pay for. This is just more love it or leave it bullshit. Seriously, if your only rebuttal is if you don’t like it then leave, you’ve essential conceded the point. > [@wolfpup](#): > > So far you’ve been factually wrong about absolutely everything I’ve ever seen you post here, so it’s not surprising that you don’t understand what hate speech laws are, their fundamental purpose, and what they apply to. As for your ridiculous “taxation is theft” mantra, obviously no one here thinks you should be “penalized”, but there seems to be a consensus that you should be ridiculed. > > Again, if you do have a coherent and constructive thought on the matter of taxation, tell us what it is. What’s with you and not answering questions? Would you support penalizing somebody for arguing that taxation is theft? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/175 "2015-12-23T01:58:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Question for you. Let’s say I own an expensive car. One day, another driver, acting carelessly, crashes into my car and totals it. He denies any responsibility for the wreck, and refuses to pay for repairs. I take him to court, and the judge finds in my favor, and forces the other driver to make restitution. > > The other driver’s property has been taken from him by force. Is it proper, therefore, to say that I stole his money? If not, then your definition of “theft” appears to be defective. Yes, it is proper to that you stole his money. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/176 "2015-12-23T02:01:11Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > A desert island is the only place that I can think of that would make you happy as you don’t like taxation. Let me know someplace that both isn’t a desert island and doesn’t have taxation, then move there if you want to be happy. Can you tell me exactly what in your post here disproves that taxation is theft? ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/177 "2015-12-23T02:05:44Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Can you tell me exactly what in your post here disproves that taxation is theft? Nothing, but you’ve already stated that you think the United States constitution is based on theft since it gives the power of taxation to congress. I would think you would be making plans to leave the country for your own peace of mind. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/178 "2015-12-23T02:20:23Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > Nothing, but you’ve already stated that you think the United States constitution is based on theft since it gives the power of taxation to congress. I would think you would be making plans to leave the country for your own peace of mind. Glad you could admit it. It’s positively hilarious to me that “love it or leave it” passes as reasoned discourse with you and Wolfpup. But don’t let that keep going on about how the left champions individualism more. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/179 "2015-12-23T02:25:56Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Glad you could admit it. > > It’s positively hilarious to me that “love it or leave it” passes as reasoned discourse with you and Wolfpup. But don’t let that keep going on about how the left champions individualism more. I didn’t say you have to love it or leave it. I already suggested offshore tax havens for you. You could live here and use those. I only stated that taxation is smack dab in the United States constitution, but you continually refuse to elaborate on how 2.5 million people live without a government or with a government that doesn’t have the power of taxation. You’re the one that refuses a reasoned discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654/180 "2015-12-23T02:27:56Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > . . . Would you support penalizing somebody for arguing that taxation is theft? Yes or no? Of course not. We don’t penalize people for saying absurd things. You can say that geysers built the Great Pyramid, or that the Apollo Program was a hoax. You can say any silly, weird, extreme, foolish, wrong thing you want. And we’re gonna point out how weird, silly, etc. it is. Would you support penalizing somebody for arguing that taxation isn’t theft? Yes or no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-champions-individualism-more-liberals-or-conservatives/740654.md?page=10)