# Which was worse - the Matrix sequels or the Star Wars prequels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 17, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795 "2010-05-17T18:51:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/41 "2010-05-18T18:39:03Z")
Matrix sequels are worse. At least the Star Wars films are comprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/42 "2010-05-18T18:49:44Z")
Hey! Stop talking about the romance between those two! You’re making me sick! ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/43 "2010-05-18T19:10:53Z")
I vote for the Matrix Sequels. I think both sets of movies suffer from some fundamental flaws, but I think the Prequels get more crap than they deserve because so many people saw them as kids and have their childish remembrance, where every imperfection was a quirk rather than a flaw; the originals had been completely romanticized so no matter how good the prequels had been, they still would have gotten crap. Further, Star Wars was aimed at children, but having grown up with it, the original trilogy seemed to grow up too, so the target audience seemed off with the new trilogy, when it really wasn’t a whole lot different (I do think he aimed a little low with the TPM though). I think the prequels suffer from some horrible dialogue but still managed to carry a decent story, and I don’t really don’t have problems with that. Maybe it’s because I’ve watched a lot of anime that suffers from the same sort of problem. At no point was I lost when watching those films, I may have had a little trouble buying what they were feeding me, but I could suspend disbelief. I think the Matrix sequels may not have had quite as bad dialogue, but the underlying story was much more confusing and difficult to follow. I also think that many of the mistakes that were made in the Prequels either are forgivable, fanwankable, or are just as bad in the Matrix. For instance, yes, the Midichlorian thing was horribly stupid, but not only is dropped in the next two films, but it’s easily fanwanked as a “power level” (ie, the DBZ scouter sort of thing) and that while they think that’s what makes the Force work or whatever, it’s really only meaningful as a way of telling how strong it is. With Jar Jar, he was annoying in the first movie, was received poorly, and they minimized his role in the other two. In the Matrix, Agent Smith doesn’t make much sense, powers working outside the Matrix as they explained it made no sense, bringing back Trinity just to kill her again in a less dramatic way was lame, and the Oracle needing a new shell was unnecessary and frankly insulting. Finally, I think the actual underlying story for the Prequels was better. We’re a little disappointed with how they got there, but we still got to see the majoy points in the fall of Anakin, the rise of Palpatine, etc. I don’t really feel like the Matrix sequels accomplished anything meaningful. So yeah, neither set is good, but I think the flaws of the prequels are less, at least when accounting for the 16 years of romanticization. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/44 "2010-05-18T19:15:22Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > and the Oracle needing a new shell was unnecessary and frankly insulting. Avoiding the question completely here just to add… Didnt the original actress for the oracle pass away, requiring a new actress to take her place, with the story explanation of a “new shell”. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/45 "2010-05-18T19:31:11Z")
There’s no contest. The Matrix sequels were a mess but the prequels were a failure on just about every single level. Story telling, plotting, annoying characters, boring repetitive fights, overlong action sequences, character relationships, dialogue, acting even the F/X looked too fake/insubstantial/flashy. Hell even the costumes looked stupid. The Matrix sequels could have used another re-write or two but the Star Wars movies needed Lucas to be removed and remade from the ground up. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/46 "2010-05-18T19:36:45Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Didnt the original actress for the oracle pass away, requiring a new actress to take her place, with the story explanation of a “new shell”. [Apparently.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_%28Matrix_character%29) > [@](#): > > The Oracle is played by Gloria Foster in The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded, and by Mary Alice in The Matrix Revolutions and Enter the Matrix, one of the franchise’s video games. In The Matrix Revolutions and Enter the Matrix, it is explained that Kamala and Rama Kandra, the parents of Sati, traded with the Merovingian, giving the Oracle’s termination code in exchange for their daughter’s passage into the Matrix as an Exile via the Trainman. In reality, Mary Alice played the Oracle because Gloria Foster died of complications from diabetes before her role in Matrix Revolutions was shot; nevertheless, the change in actresses led to a powerful development in the character of the Oracle that might not have been present otherwise, as it allowed insight to her relation to the nature of choice and the consequences of one’s choices. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/47 "2010-05-18T19:39:12Z")
I used to wonder where all the people were that hated the Star Wars prequels. Now I know that every single one of them posts on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/48 "2010-05-18T19:48:24Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Absolutely agree. _The Phantom Menace_ was bad, _The Attack of the Clones_ was awful and _The Revenge of the Sith_ was the epitome of suck. Without getting into a protracted debate about it, I will just say that a LOT of people disagree with you. _Revenge of the Sith_ got good reviews when it came out, and IMDb viewers obviously agree. The first two prequels don’t rate as well with either critics or fans. _The Phantom Menace_ and _The Attack of the Clones_ were pretty awful, IMHO. Still not as awful as the Matrix sequels though. (Hey! The Matrix is gonna get us! --Well then let’s have a RAVE!) ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/49 "2010-05-18T19:55:06Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Without getting into a protracted debate about it, I will just say that a LOT of people disagree with you. So what? A lot of people disagree with you, as well as a lot of other things. It’s a meaningless statement. A lot of people disagree about abortion. Who cares? ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/50 "2010-05-18T21:09:05Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I used to wonder where all the people were that hated the Star Wars prequels. Now I know that every single one of them posts on this board. It’s OK, so do all the people who liked them. All three of you. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/51 "2010-05-18T21:09:37Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > [Larry/Lana Wachowski](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0905154/) Wow. That just adds a whole other layer of meaning to the films. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/52 "2010-05-18T21:27:05Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > This is sort of like the choice given to condemned prisoners in Utah: shooting or hanging. No matter what you choose, it’s not good for you. > > I suppose I’d go with **Star Wars**. Both **Episode One** and **Reloaded** were terrible movies, no doubt, but at least I was willing to see **Episode Two** , probably because the original **Star Wars** was better than the original **Matrix**. > > Neither film was particularly original (The concept behind **The Matrix** had already been explored in **Dark City** , for example – whose sets were even reused by the Wachowskis – and the “original ideas” dated back to Plato). But Star Wars wasn’t pretending to be deep and philosophical; it was an old fashioned 30s movie serial. But where\*\* Episode One \*\*plodded along, **Reloaded** was just a flashy mess, with a deus ex machina every two minutes. Well Chuck, we might disagree about Crash, but I completely agree with what you wrote here, especially what you wrote about the Matrix Reloaded. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/53 "2010-05-18T21:58:54Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Sure I can. The battles were boring, choreographed crap. That dude who made the hour-long review of Episodes I and II nailed it–there was no emotion, and the lack of character depth undermined any excitement that scene could have had. Exactly, even the Darth Maul lightsaber battle was a snore to anyone who watched really crappy shows like Zorro or the Highlander TV series where the weekly fight had more emotional investment. To paraphrase the reviewer guy for truth: Luke Skywalker just wailing on Vader in a sloppy, blind rage in Return of the Jedi was far more satifsying than the clean, sterile choreography of Batman and Robin carefully and emotionlessly fighting Darth Maul, even if the sith had a cool double-edged saber. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/54 "2010-05-18T22:59:41Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Neither film was particularly original (The concept behind **The Matrix** had already been explored in **Dark City** , for example – whose sets were even reused by the Wachowskis – and the “original ideas” dated back to Plato). And _Dark City_ was, in my opinion, a far superior movie. I never really got the love for _The Matrix_. Sure, there was some good stuff in there, but there was also some really awful shit. The martial arts training scenes between Neo and Morpheus were embarrassingly awful; Lawrence Fishburne’s portentous speaking style and the philosophical bromides he had to deliver were terrible; while i love Hugo Weaving, Agent Smith’s voice and delivery were comically bad; and the whole “If you love him he is The One” crap with Neo and Trinity was straight out of some stupid fairy tale. The sequels were, of course, far worse. As for the _Star Wars_ prequels, i watched the first one, thought it was awful, and never even bothered seeing the final two. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/55 "2010-05-18T23:23:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I never really got the love for _The Matrix_. Sure, there was some good stuff in there, but there was also some really awful shit. The martial arts training scenes between Neo and Morpheus were embarrassingly awful; Lawrence Fishburne’s portentous speaking style and the philosophical bromides he had to deliver were terrible; while i love Hugo Weaving, Agent Smith’s voice and delivery were comically bad; and the whole “If you love him he is The One” crap with Neo and Trinity was straight out of some stupid fairy tale. Here’s why we love it: everything you deemed a negative I adored. Agent Smith’s delivery was fantastically disconcerting. And I thought the fight scenes between Neo and Morpheus were some of the most interesting scenes of the movie–I loved the slow build-up. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/56 "2010-05-18T23:28:49Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Here’s why we love it: everything you deemed a negative I adored. Agent Smith’s delivery was fantastically disconcerting. And I thought the fight scenes between Neo and Morpheus were some of the most interesting scenes of the movie–I loved the slow build-up. Hey, i concede that i’m in minority on this. The movie was hugely popular, and got plenty of critical acclaim. I still can’t think of some of those scenes without cringing, though. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/57 "2010-05-19T01:22:19Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > You have 30-year-olds watching prequels to movies that came out when they were 10 and were still designed for that younger crowd, then being surprised that it doesn’t appeal as well to their older sensibilities. Eh, _Star Wars_ was praised by plenty of over-10-year-old critics for its storytelling and visual effects, and it spawned numerous imitators that even 10-year-olds could recognize as crap. (_Star Crash_, anyone?) On the other hand, my favorite TV show at present (maybe ever) is _Doctor Who_, a program designed for little English boys to watch with their granddads. “It’s for kids” is not an excuse for bad storytelling. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/58 "2010-05-19T02:49:41Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Eh, _Star Wars_ was praised by plenty of over-10-year-old critics for its storytelling and visual effects, and it spawned numerous imitators that even 10-year-olds could recognize as crap. (_Star Crash_, anyone?) On the other hand, my favorite TV show at present (maybe ever) is _Doctor Who_, a program designed for little English boys to watch with their granddads. “It’s for kids” is not an excuse for bad storytelling. Eh, I’m sorry, but Lucas didn’t get massively worse in 20 years, he just failed to get better, and he didn’t have any “I am your father” tricks to pull his butt out of the fire. Being for kids is not an excuse for bad storytelling, but a 10 year old is a lot more likely to overlook bad storytelling if there’s a lot of cool there. Plus, Star Wars was the first of the Summer Blockbuster concept, and really pioneered the massive all-encompassing merchandising push–all of that pushed the original trilogy well beyond it’s storytelling merits–and all of that was old hat by the time the prequels came around. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/59 "2010-05-19T03:40:53Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > Plus, Star Wars was the first of the Summer Blockbuster concept, and really pioneered the massive all-encompassing merchandising push–all of that pushed the original trilogy well beyond it’s storytelling merits–and all of that was old hat by the time the prequels came around. Nitpick: Jaws was the first blockbuster. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795/60 "2010-05-19T03:57:24Z")
> [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](#): > > …squandered… That says it right there for both examples. They had a huge fan base and lots of potential to tell some great stories, and they pissed it away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-was-worse-the-matrix-sequels-or-the-star-wars-prequels/539795.md?page=4)