# While the media runs through another Bush-bashing frenzy, the main point is ignored. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486 "2003-07-10T15:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![spanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@spanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spanna)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/21 "2003-07-11T18:53:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Rice says the CIA cleared the entire speech… The only way they could get the CIA to clear it was to say “yeah we know its wrong but the British have said it, so we are quoting them” They just found a form of words that they could get past the CIA. Yhat sort of misrepresentation is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/22 "2003-07-11T20:07:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*Nope. > > Rice says the CIA cleared the entire speech…\*\* You really think it’s that simple? Lacking a cite, I’ll cheerfully bet you a Benjamin or two that it’s not that simple, and wait for one to turn up. Like the speech repeatedly being sent down to the CIA for clearance, with them pointing out the problems, and then finally them saying, “we’ve done our duty; we’ve let the C-in-C know the problems; he wants us to rubber-stamp it, and we’ll do so.” Or being ordered to give their clearance against their better judgment, or something. I’m willing to bet they didn’t just get this speech for the first time, and send it back to the White House with an “approved by CIA” sticker on it. Not in _this_ town, where C_Y_A is an ingrained survival instinct. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/23 "2003-07-11T20:26:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\* > Rice says the CIA cleared the entire speech… > \*\* Yeah, once the it was changed from, “Iraq tried to purchase uranium,” to, "_The British said_ that Iraq tried to purchase uranium.’ That made it a factually accurate statement. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/24 "2003-07-11T21:14:21Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by blowero \* \*\* “Bush-bashing frenzy” \*\*[/QUOTE I think i’ve seen that film, or maybe i’m thinking of ‘Assmaster: lock and lube’ ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/25 "2003-07-12T14:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Yeah, once the it was changed from, “Iraq tried to purchase uranium,” to, "_The British said_ that Iraq tried to purchase uranium.’ > > That made it a factually accurate statement. \*\* This does, in fact, seem to be Tenet’s argument. Frankly, it sounds like something Terl would say. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/26 "2003-07-12T14:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Frankly, it sounds like something Terl would say. \*\* Had a little too much [kerbango](http://www.angelfire.com/film/severen/battlefield.html) this morning Ben ? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/27 "2003-07-12T14:58:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*You really think it’s that simple? > > Lacking a cite, I’ll cheerfully bet you a Benjamin or two \*\* Zat right??? Wow! Who knew it would be so easy to make money on this board?! 😃 Seen today’s newspapers yet? P.S. I wonder what great new “big” story the liberal media will pounce upon (or invent) this week. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/28 "2003-07-12T15:25:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonBodner \* > \*\*Um, you do know that Bush has a BA in history from Yale and an MBA from Harvard, right? > > Yeah, completely uneducated.\*\* Who called him uneducated? I called him stupid. Since you’re such a font of information that everyone knows (re: Bush’s degrees), what sorts of grades did he get? \*\* > [@](#): > > More on Bush and how “stupid” he is relative to other presidents can be found at > > [http://www.csbsju.edu/uspp/Election/bush011401.htm](http://www.csbsju.edu/uspp/Election/bush011401.htm) \*\* Hey, I can cite [opinion pieces](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/08/opinion/08KRIS.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fNicholas%20D%20Kristof) too! (Requires NY Times registration) > [@](#): > > My take is that he’s very bright in a street-smarts way: he’s witty and has a great memory for faces, and his old girlfriends speak more highly of him than many women do of their husbands. But he’s also less interested in ideas than perhaps anybody I’ve ever interviewed, and his intelligence is all practical and not a bit intellectual. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/29 "2003-07-12T21:10:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > Seen today’s newspapers yet? > P.S. I wonder what great new “big” story the liberal media will pounce upon (or invent) this week. > > :rolleyes: You really don’t think this is a big story? It was on the front page today (but I guess that “liberal media” just put it there 'cuz they’re so gosh-darn liberal).:rolleyes: Tenet said in a statement: “These …words should never have been included in the text written for the president…”. But here’s where it gets interesting: Tenet says that the CIA _knew_ the evidence was very weak, and RAISED THOSE CONCERNS with the administration. He says the CIA went along with the final text of the speech only because of the technicality that they were citing a _British_ intelligence report. He now acknowledges that was a mistake. Condoleezza Rice, however, is claiming that the only changes sought by the CIA were to remove specific reference to amounts of uranium and countries from which Iraq was seeking to obtain it, implying that the CIA NEVER RAISED ANY CONCERNS about the reliability of the evidence itself. Well, SOMEBODY has to by lying - they can’t both be right. I’m having a hard time with the idea that Tenet came clean about the false evidence, but _then_ decided to lie about the CIA voicing their original concerns about including it in the speech. It seems much more likely that the administration _knew_ it was weak evidence and opted to include it anyway, going with the misleading statement that it relied on British sources. And Tenet is now taking the fall for Bush so that he can save his job. In today’s L.A. Times: “…some officials in the intelligence community had said earlier Friday that a statement from Tenet taking the heat off Bush might be the only way for the CIA director to save his job.” But it really doesn’t matter which scenario you believe, because the President should ultimately be responsible for the words he utters. I could forgive him for mistakenly giving incorrect information in a speech written by someone else if it were regarding a relatively inconsequential matter, but _this_ speech was made for the purpose of JUSTIFYING THE INVASION OF A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, IN VIOLATION OF THE WISHES OF THE U.N. - So if Bush indeed were the hapless victim of false information that was fed to him, that, in my opinion, does not excuse him. For something as important as that, he should have been sure. This is just the same “I was out of the loop” crap that Reagan was spewing during the Contragate scandal. At least Reagan had the excuse that he was probably suffering from Alzheimer’s at the time. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/30 "2003-07-12T21:17:14Z")
I forgot this: Even a cursory check of the bogus report would have immediately identified it as a forgery. It was signed by people who weren’t even in office during the date of the document. I mean, shouldn’t that be the FIRST thing you check, to see if it’s signed by the right person? Personally, I think they would have been better off admitting they lied, because the alternative is admitting that they’re a bunch of bumbling idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/31 "2003-07-12T21:39:49Z")
Someone refresh my memory on all these “Bush-bashing frenzys” we’ve apparantly had before the uranium thing. I guess I missed the paper on those days. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/32 "2003-07-12T21:59:38Z")
**bowero** not suggesting doubt, but can you cite that Condie Rice stuff about what the CIA wanted. Thats relatively minor, I suppose, but the contradiction is very interesting. As in maybe they didn’t get thier stories straight. ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/33 "2003-07-12T22:40:08Z")
The real sad thing is: The Niger forgeries were exposed BEFORE the war began. The “Dodgy” Dossier was also exposed BEFORE the war began. The UN inspectors where labeled INCOMPETENT because they couldn’t find the MASSIVE storage of nuclear, chemical, biological weapons, mounted on the ICBMS that could reach US in 45 mins. And now,… they have trouble finding even a PIECE of PAPER that even mentions something like “Hey, Mr Saddam, we can make a strong stink bomb if you like” Wake Up! Smell the coffee. You have been LIED to. The question is: Do you care? I think you should. You should teach the president that you SIMPLY CANNOT TAKE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC FOR A RIDE. Don’t let him of the hook ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/34 "2003-07-12T22:47:21Z")
As others have pointed out already – Tenet might be taking the blame for not fighting hard enough to keep the bogus uranium intel out of the speech, but who was _fighting harder_ to keep it **in?** ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/35 "2003-07-12T22:51:33Z")
Oh, by the way. The forgery was apparently made by a Nigerien (?) ambassador to Italy and sold to an italian official who sold it to the british. Anybody saw the movie “Taylor of Panama” ? A British (?) agent stationed in Panama starts fabricating false intelligence and makes lots of money out of it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/36 "2003-07-12T23:13:17Z")
Cite, please, **Chaos** Want to check that out a bit. And its the “tailor” of Panama, from the John LeCarre book. Not nearly so good as Alec Guinnes as Our Man in Havana. How come real spies are never as smart as George Smiley? ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/37 "2003-07-13T01:24:56Z")
What? My word not enough? 🙂 sorry about the omission. Good thing you asked for the cite, casue after re-reading it, I noticed that my recollection was not very good. There are many connections and it’s all fuzzy: niger-\>italy-\>france-\>britain (whew!) [http://slate.msn.com/id/2080238/](http://slate.msn.com/id/2080238/) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/38 "2003-07-13T01:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **Cite, please, Chaos Want to check that out a bit. And its the “tailor” of Panama, from the John LeCarre book. Not nearly so good as Alec Guinness as Our Man in Havana.** Super movie. From Graham Greene’s book. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/39 "2003-07-13T06:55:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\ ***bowero** not suggesting doubt, but can you cite that Condie Rice stuff about what the CIA wanted. Thats relatively minor, I suppose, but the contradiction is very interesting. As in maybe they didn’t get thier stories straight. \*\* It was all in the same L.A. Times article today (Saturday). Here’s the section I was referring to (in part): > [@](#): > > This appears somewhat at odds with Rice’s description of events. In a lengthy interview with reporters on Air Force One, she said the only changes sought by the CIA were to remove specific references to amounts of uranium and countries from which Iraq was seeking to obtain it. > > She said the agency did not object to the core of the assertion - that Iraq was seeking to procure uranium from Africa. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486/40 "2003-07-13T07:48:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > How come real spies are never as smart as George Smiley? Because they live in a real world that is not scripted to be just so. Actually I have a great deal of respect for the Agency people I know. Smart, capable, interesting folk – I am sure even the ones I know but don’t are as well. However, stretched thin on the human resources, IMO. Too little money to those folks you think of as spies, a la the movies, too much to big damned dishes and the like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/while-the-media-runs-through-another-bush-bashing-frenzy-the-main-point-is-ignored/187486.md?page=3)