# Whisky Tango Foxtrot!!! Shooting at the Holocaust Museum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 10, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363 "2009-06-10T17:56:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/121 "2009-06-11T15:48:35Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > In 88-year-olds. Everyone else is shaking their heads in disbelief, which would be another story if it were against people of a different melanin content, which we understand on a visceral level even if many of us don’t believe in it. > > The vast majority of people in America don’t even understand anti-semitism much less believe in it. I have a second cousin about that age. He’s Italian-American, as am I. His anti-semitism is terrible to behold. Raged himself almost into a heart attack a few years ago. Only difference is, he doesn’t have guns or violent tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/122 "2009-06-11T17:32:29Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > I have a second cousin about that age. He’s Italian-American, as am I. His anti-semitism is terrible to behold. Raged himself almost into a heart attack a few years ago. Only difference is, he doesn’t have guns or violent tendencies. The surprising thing is not the racism or anger, it’s the action. People that age rarely go beyond shaking their fists, writing their Congressman, and shouting “Get off my lawn”. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/123 "2009-06-11T17:36:02Z")
I saw on the local news yesterday that his website was taken over by a guy in Michigan in 2000. My co-worker told me this morning that she got a call from her sister yesterday, that journalists and the FBI were at her (the sister’s) house. Turns out the guy who took over that website is her sister’s live-in boyfriend :eek: She (my co-worker) knew he was racist and spouted off dumb views… but not THAT big of a crazy person. She also says her sister is pretty dumb and weak willed and the type of person who just goes along with a man’s views. But her sister has a child who is half African-American (thankfully he lives in Florida and not with this man.) His name and all kinds of identifying information, where he works, etc. has been all over the local news. He has been getting death threats and calls, people driving by his house, etc. His life is going to be hell. I don’t feel bad for him but I hope her son never has to live around this. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/124 "2009-06-11T17:50:24Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Sweetly naive, I guess. (Sorry late) Seriously, I get the “Jew” hate ( I don’t agree, but I understand the argument), but the museum? Who at the museum is a threat? > > (Skald, I’m ‘white and free’ but I am NOT disingenuous. I don’t have your insight but I don’t understand what shooting up a museum would accomplish. Surely there are better “jew” organizations to hit. The museum makes sense when you consider the shooter’s a Holocaust denier. He believes the jews made it up and perpetuate this ‘big lie’ to oppress people like him. The museum perpetuates the ‘lie’. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/125 "2009-06-11T17:56:29Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > The surprising thing is not the racism or anger, it’s the action. People that age rarely go beyond shaking their fists, writing their Congressman, and shouting “Get off my lawn”. “Old Man Shoots At Cloud” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/126 "2009-06-11T17:57:16Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Sweetly naive, I guess. (Sorry late) Seriously, I get the “Jew” hate ( I don’t agree, but I understand the argument), but the museum? Who at the museum is a threat? > > (Skald, I’m ‘white and free’ but I am NOT disingenuous. I don’t have your insight but I don’t understand what shooting up a museum would accomplish. Surely there are better “jew” organizations to hit. Jane, for rabid anti-Semites (and there are black ones as well as white ones), the Holocaust Museum is bound to be riling. Such persons will see it as the celebration of a colossal lie and hoax perpetuated by the International Jewish Conspiracy–or perhaps as a reminder of their side’s biggest failure snatched from the jaws of success. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/127 "2009-06-11T18:18:10Z")
> [@maladroit](#): > > The museum makes sense when you consider the shooter’s a Holocaust denier. He believes the jews made it up and perpetuate this ‘big lie’ to oppress people like him. > The museum perpetuates the ‘lie’. Well, nothing is going to work so well to convince people that the holocaust never could’ve happened then typing up a bunch of anti-sematic rants about killing jews and then shooting up a jewish associated museum. Some blogs were posting snippets of his webpage. Entertainingly, his view on the holocaust was apparently that: a)It never happened but b) it really should have. In any case, judging from the snippets of his writings that have been posted, he really seemed unhinged, even by the standards of white supremists. I doubt he had any rational reason for the shooting, even if his premise of Jewish conspiracies against whites was true, a shooting rampage on a museum isn’t likely to do anything to help his cause. Just a crazy old racist trying to go out in a blaze of violence and take out some of his anger on the people he hates. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/128 "2009-06-11T19:50:05Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … and the corned beef on rye deli sandwiches that does it! Oy! I feel so much better now, could you please open a window?. But it tastes SO GOOD!. The shooter was just a crazy hateful old bastard. He’ll be dead soon enough, just from natural causes. Probably been brain dead for years anyway. When it happens, good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/129 "2009-06-11T20:19:38Z")
here’s a link to his criminal charges: https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/embed_code/key/rs8t8rV94uLx1w charge 1: murder in the first degree - title 18 usc sec 1111 charge 2: killing in the course of possession of a firearm in a federal facility - title 18 usc sec 930 (b) and © ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/130 "2009-06-11T20:23:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Probably been brain dead for years anyway. There’s something Dave Barry once said about Lyndon LaRouche that I think applies to this guy: “Where you have a brain, this guy has a Whack-a-Mole game”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/131 "2009-06-11T21:34:34Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I’m simply comparing this shooting to the recent killing of an abortion doctor. I seem to recall Keith “Ratings Basement Dweller” Olbermann going on a tirade about Bill O’Reilly spreading the kind of hate that would lead to the killing of abortion doctors. But I guess that kind of thinking only goes one way, huh? :rolleyes: You really are one sick bastard, aren’t you? > [@Equipoise](#): > > MSNBC reported that the guy was a Freeper, and his posts have been pulled off the site. So, it was ok for him to post his right wing racist bullshit before, but now that he’s acted on it, they pull what he wrote off. Nice. > > Tiller’s murderer was also a Freeper. The Freepers are trying to claim that the guy’s a Leftist. (And that Nazism is left-wing) I’ll still never understand Holocaust denial. For neo-Nazis, you’d think the Holocaust would be a GOOD thing. (And do they really BELIEVE it’s a lie, or do they just try to convince people it is?) ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/132 "2009-06-11T23:00:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The Freepers are trying to claim that the guy’s a Leftist. (And that Nazism is left-wing) Hmm. Years ago, the Klan and some neo-Nazi group had rallies in downtown Raleigh on the same day. I remember being told that, despite their apparently common views, the two groups did not get along at all. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/133 "2009-06-11T23:02:31Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Hmm. Years ago, the Klan and some neo-Nazi group had rallies in downtown Raleigh on the same day. I remember being told that, despite their apparently common views, the two groups did not get along at all. I can believe it. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/134 "2009-06-11T23:30:29Z")
It sort of surprised me at the time…I had always thought that various hate groups would enjoy each others’ company. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/135 "2009-06-12T00:30:49Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > It sort of surprised me at the time…I had always thought that various hate groups would enjoy each others’ company. The Klan is mostly composed of country boys who hate black people, while Neo-Nazis are predominantly urban (or suburban) kids who hate Jews. They hate each other because each group thinks the other dilutes “the message”. Then there are the Christian Patriots/militiamen, who are sort of a crossover movement- they’re primarily anti-Jewish (though I doubt you’ll find one who’d let a black guy date his daughter) but they don’t live in or near cities - mostly because they tend to move to places like Montana to “get away” from multicultural society. All three also tend to differ in ideology, as well as targets. Klan groups are generally white supremacist- they don’t mind having darkies around, as long as we remember our place and don’t look at their women and so on. Neo-Nazi ideology generally revolves around seizing political power to forcibly “repatriate” nonwhites (or even exterminate them). Christian Patriots/ militiamen are usually slightly more benign\*, since they’re white separatists. Instead of trying to get rid of people they don’t like, they move their own families. There _is_ some crossover; when Aryan Nations was operating it was sort of a umbrella for all three groups, although Richard Butler was more in the Neo-Nazi mold. And of course you’ll find all sorts on S\*\*\*\*front (which is operated by Don Black, who runs one of the two largest Klan groups). Of course, there are also regional groups with different racial foci, such as in communities with large Asian or Middle Eastern populations. For example, the largest (by membership) Neo-Nazi group in Florida is called the Confederate Hammerskins, and they tend to be anti-Hispanic as well as antisemitic and anti-black. \*More benign is perhaps the wrong word, since the majority of abortion clinic bombers and the like come from the militia movement. Timothy McVeigh, for example, was a Klansman who became disillusioned with the group and fell in with militia types instead. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/136 "2009-06-12T00:50:09Z")
OK, either I’ve personally slipped the rails, or the world has. I just saw a video clip, but I cannot find a cite. So I’m hesitant to decide which of the above is operative. But I just watched Rush explaining that the shooter’s philosophical underpinnings are in fact most closely aligned with left wing philosophy. Despite all of the rather lengthy and surprisingly well spoken self analyses the shooter himself posted on his web site, he was really not a right winger at all. Thank you, Rush. I’m going to go hit some acid now, just to even things out. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/137 "2009-06-12T01:39:29Z")
Limbaugh is nuts. While I think this guys view could fairly be said to be so far off the map of standard political spectrum as to those terms not being very relevant, there’s simply no sane argument that the guy was, or saw himself as a leftist. Here’s the recently released note they found: “You want my weapons – this is how you’ll get them. The Holocaust is a lie. Obama was created by Jews. Obama does what his Jew owners tell him to do. Jews captured America’s money. Jews control the mass media.” Yep, standard lefty boilerplate, right? And guess what bumper-sticker was on his truck in a pic on the website? Bush/Cheney '04 The guy may have favored what he understood as “socialism,” but to him that basically seemed to mean German fascism, not Sweden. And he posted on Free Republic, not Daily Kos. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/138 "2009-06-12T03:46:13Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > OK, either I’ve personally slipped the rails, or the world has. > > I just saw a video clip, but I cannot find a cite. So I’m hesitant to decide which of the above is operative. > > But I just watched Rush explaining that the shooter’s philosophical underpinnings are in fact most closely aligned with left wing philosophy. Despite all of the rather lengthy and surprisingly well spoken self analyses the shooter himself posted on his web site, he was really not a right winger at all. > > Thank you, Rush. I’m going to go hit some acid now, just to even things out. That’s pretty much standard. ANYTHING bad is automatically declared to be left wing by the righties. Hitler ? Left wing. The Antichrist ? Left wing. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/139 "2009-06-12T04:05:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You really are one sick bastard, aren’t you? I will second that. What a jerk. Oh, and to hell with the Freepers. They are a bunch of morons. That’s the nicest thing I have to say about them. And fuck O’Reilly and Limbaugh too. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363/140 "2009-06-12T04:34:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’ll still never understand Holocaust denial. For neo-Nazis, you’d think the Holocaust would be a GOOD thing. (And do they really BELIEVE it’s a lie, or do they just try to convince people it is?) It’s both. They think it was a brilliant idea, most traitorously ended (by the Trotsko-Jewish Conspiracy) before it could accomplish its needed objective. But they also say the Jews exaggerated the numbers in order to look like victims and get total control over the world by way of guilt trip, as made evident by the fact that everyone thinks Nazis and neo-Nazis are scum. They themselves \*know \*they are the only courageous knights standing against blah blah blah, so they can’t be scum. Anybody thinks they’re scum must have been manipulated by (or be the pawns of) the Trotsko-Jewish Conspiracy. Which they already were before and why the camps were a good idea. Makes perfect sense. If you don’t see it, I’m told a lobotomy or two helps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whisky-tango-foxtrot-shooting-at-the-holocaust-museum/499363.md?page=8)