Whistleblower releases documents on America's drone campaign

Eh, they were pretty widely reported, and there was a decent amount of public debate about them, at least in general terms. I guess some Americans weren’t aware of them, but only in the sense that there are a lot of American’s that don’t follow current events. They were hardly “secret” campaigns.

I don’t see how drones allow for “secret wars”. Neither the bombing campaigns in Somolia or Yemen were “secret”. Indeed, since the US seems to be the primary users of drones, they seem to be the opposite of a weapon for a “secret war”. If a drone blows up a building in the ME, pretty much everyone figures it was the US.

During the Cold War, the US launched a host of covert actions that really could be characterized as “secret wars”. But the drone campaigns seem the opposite of that. Everyone knows they’re happening. The details may be secret (as is true with every war), but the actions themselves aren’t.

The 2001 AUMF is what allows these alleged “secret wars”, not drones. That AUMF grants broad authority to the president to do pretty much whatever he wants pretty much wherever he wants wrt rooting out alleged terrorists. In practical matters, that means bombing any country that isn’t either an ally of us or that isn’t capable of policing it’s own territory if they have a “terrorist” network we want to get rid of.

When you bother checking whether you’re actually assassinating the right guy, maybe. The US doesn’t really do that part, which results in drones blowing random people away like it’s cool.

[QUOTE=Simplicio]

I don’t see how drones allow for “secret wars”. Neither the bombing campaigns in Somolia or Yemen were “secret”. Indeed, since the US seems to be the primary users of drones, they seem to be the opposite of a weapon for a “secret war”. If a drone blows up a building in the ME, pretty much everyone figures it was the US.

During the Cold War, the US launched a host of covert actions that really could be characterized as “secret wars”. But the drone campaigns seem the opposite of that. Everyone knows they’re happening. The details may be secret (as is true with every war), but the actions themselves aren’t.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I realize now that “secret wars” is not what I should have said, as the drone campaigns were publicly known and discussed. I even said as much in my first post.

More what I was getting at was this. In comparing a drone campaign to a military campaign with “boots on the ground”, the drone campaign gets a lot less attention. Hence it’s much easier for the government to wage a drone campaigns endlessly without being called to account for it. For those not inclined towards trusting the military to limit itself fairly and reasonably, the prospect of the military having the capability to rain down an endless amount of drone strikes is worrisome.

Is there anything new? I’m trying to recall all the previous drone controversies, aside from the usual moral hypocrisy or claims of accuracy and how we only kill bad guys.

  1. Double taps.

  2. Killing journalists and emergency responders.

  3. Choosing targets based on a five dollar military term I can’t remember. Demographic analysis and profiles – basically, if you’re a military aged male, you’re SOL.

Again, I don’t think the drones bring much new to the table. The US bombed Iraq with missiles and (manned) aircraft more or less constantly from 1993-2003, and there was little push back from the public. I’m sure drones bring something extra from a tactical point of view (otherwise we wouldn’t bother building them), but as far as the big picture goes, I don’t think they really change anything. If you’re the General planning a bombing campaign, I’m sure drones are a more efficent way to blow stuff up than other methods. But from the perspective of the public, or the people being bombed, I don’t think it makes much difference if its a cruise missile or a missile fired from a manned aircraft or a drone fired missile that is being used.

Or put another way, endless numbers of drone strikes doesn’t really seem any more worrisome than endless numbers of other types of missile strikes.

The “endless war” aspect of the current bombing campaigns aren’t due to the existence of drones. It’s because of the powers given by the AUMF, the ill-defined nature of the enemy in fighting islamic terrorism, and because the public generally wants the US to do some form of action against radical Islamic groups.

According to the United Nations, the Taliban were responsible for 76% of civilian casualties in Afghanistan in 2009, 75% in 2010 and 80% in 2011. I’m curious as to why nobody complains about this. Civilians killed by US airstrikes are labeled as murder, genocide, war crimes, etc, but the fact that the Taliban does it three times as often (and often deliberately, rather than collaterally) is apparently so normal that it is not even worth remarking upon.

There is no fundamental moral difference between a “drone” strike and any other air, missile, or artillery strike. The fact that it allows the operator to strike without risk to themselves is called “winning.” I suspect the first caveman shot by an arrow made the same complaint.

And one more point on the subject of civilian casualties: The entire reason the law of war requires combatants to be uniformed is to prevent civilian casualties. The use of human shields is also prohibited. Civilian casualties are a direct and predictable consequence of the Taliban’s failure to adhere to this rule. And yet, again, not only are they not held responsible for this but WE are blamed when civilian casualties predictably occur due to THEIR misconduct. If they were uniformed combatants, as the Geneva Conventions demands, these incidents would be far less common.

The debate over “assassinating” enemy targets has a great deal to do with the changing nature of warfare. I’m not aware of any law of warfare that prohibits targeting an individual enemy by name. Further, people seem to keep applying a law enforcement mindset to war, in that they expect soldiers to be policemen and targeting cells to be courts. If this is what you wanted, you should have deployed a police precinct instead of a military.

Although I suspect a lot of this might be self-inflicted. America touts itself as a great defender of freedom and humanity, goes to absurd lengths to appease critics, and publicizes videos of how “smart” it’s weapons are to prove it is can discriminate and limit civilian casualties. This makes it all the more unpalatable when things go wrong… “Man-on-the-moon” syndrome kicks in and every “mistake” becomes implausible.

If our leaders had been honest from the start and said, “The army is going to fuck this place up and a lot of people are going to get killed,” we as a nation could have made a better-informed decision about what going to war really means.

I’m pretty sure spears predated bows and arrows… but with both weapons you still had a chance to kill the guy using the weapon… not with a drone

I’m pretty sure rocks predated spears…

The people being targeted by drones aren’t combatants. When the Doctors Without Borders hospital was hit recently, that was collateral damage in an attack on enemy combatants. Bombing a cafe or a house because you think an enemy of your country is there is not.

not “is there”. “Might be there”. That’s kind of the issue - drone strikes are approved with ridiculously low probative standards (if any).

So rather than pay attention to the reports and looking at the problem, many of you would rather talk about how much smarter you are because you didn’t concentrate on drones?

We concentrate on drones because that’s what we’re currently using, and it’s what we’re currently using to fuck things up. This was released to try and get people to stop this, like happened with the NSA leaks.

And it’s exactly why whistleblowers are important, and why we should be protecting them.

A few things to keep in mind would be:

  1. Americans seem largely okay with large scale drone warfare. This isn’t akin to Snowden’s leaks because Americans mostly do not care if lots and lots of people in the Middle East are killed by drones.

  2. It’s probably appropriate to recognize that most of these strikes may miss intended high value terrorist targets, but they still hit terrorist training camps, bases and etc. So the “non-high value target” dead are not necessarily civilians, they’re just lower ranking terrorists. It’s also probably worth putting this in the perspective that we now have the most accuracy and lowest incident of collateral damage in the history of aerial warfare. That may be little consolation to the still large number of people who die as collateral damage, but no one really cared that we blew up entire cities in WWII and we still venerate the people that did that as heroes to this day. I don’t think there will ever be meaningful widespread public opposition to aerial bombing as a military tactic. It’s always going to be a fringe peacenik issue.

  3. I think we’d be doing a lot of this with regular bombers if not for drones, or with cruise missiles or etc. Drones allow us to get lower yield weapons closer to targets, and actually reduce the collateral damage because we can use smaller yield weapons delivered from close range and with greater accuracy than a big cruise missile.

You can’t speak so broadly. A lot of drone strikes that make the news are targeted on terrorist leaders and often you end up hitting terrorists even if the high value target is not there. If you follow for example the news on the various bombings in which we’ve “nearly killed Baghdadi” all of them apparently killed several ISIS fighters, at least of the 3-4 incidents I can remember in recent news accounts. That suggests we’re largely just not hitting terrorist targets when their leaders are there with a high success rate (but the drone program has certainly killed many high value terrorist leaders even if the percentages are not good), but that we’re still largely hitting valid terrorist targets.

I think more scrutiny is always a good thing, but based on the information available to us I see no fact-based reason we would assume that all of the drone strikes that don’t kill a high value intended target instead kill non-terrorist civilians.

One of the major problems with the use of drones is how abstract it makes warfare and how little oversight there is. With a targeted bombing strike or assassination operation run by USSOCOM, the operation has to be briefed to a level to approve the specific mission, orders are drafted, logistical and transportation plans have to be made, et cetera. With an armed drone, that process is often abbreviated to a short list of generic operational orders and criteria for initiating a strike which is approved locally (e.g. by the officer overseeing the drone pilots) and may never be reviewed at a theater level command authority.

Drone piloting duty is not highly regarded in the Air Force, being just above missileer in undesirable assignments for junior officers, resulting in a lot of turnover. This has caused the Air Force to outsource a lot of drone flying to private contractors (just as the CIA currently does) who are under ostensible oversight of an officer but are often managed on a daily basis by other contractors. The Air Force is actually considering allowing enlisted to become drone pilots because of the issues and cost. Pilots (both Air Force and contractor) are selected primarily for their skill at operating the drone, which are the same kinds of coordination and decision making skills used in first person shooter games; almost none of the drone pilots has ever been in an actual combat and so lack the kind of situational assessment or leadership skills that professional soldiers and airmen have to develop in battlefield conditions, and so the progression of viewing warfare as little more than infrared imagery and PowerPoint slides that has so infused the upper ranks is making its way down to the junior officer level, ensuring a future armed forces that views warfare as a series of briefings and newscasts rather than a conflict in which real people die, often needlessly.

The future is even worse; as recruiting drone pilots becomes more difficult and contractors more expensive the desire to reduce costs and streamline the process will result in applying automation in the form of pattern recognition algorithms to target identification and possibly even targeting decisions so that a single operator can oversee a fleet of drones that act essentially autonomously up to requesting approval. This isn’t some kind of paranoid fantasy; the Air Force is already experimenting with ways to twin drones and reduce operator workload so that two or more drones can be flown by a single pilot, and it is entirely possible that drones may one day made fully autonomous with no man-in-the-loop control at all.

Here safely ensconced in the US or Western Europe our biggest concerns about drones are a loss of privacy, or that some foolheaded person might crash a drone into an airliner while trying to film a takeoff, or that Amazon might start using drones for delivery instead of UPS. In Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, the population has to worry about random strikes coming out of a blue sky with no warning or reason. People there speak of waiting for clouds and rain to be able to move around outside safely because drones can’t operate in those conditions (though that’s only a matter of time, too, until we improve remote sensing technology to use microwave scattering and low frequency IR it “identify” targets). If an incorrect target is taken out, the typical response, if any, is a vague, “Sorry we misidentified your son/brother/husband”. If it was a especially careless death an operator may be reprimanded or a contractor fired.

It isn’t that drones are some fundamental revolution in warfare technology per se; they do the same things that soldiers and bombers have done for centuries. But they do it so much more efficiently, with so little cost or planning, so quickly. Certainly there has always been collateral damage and misidentification. But with drones, we’re presented with the claims of how surgically precise their strikes can be while we see the evidence that such convenience and automation has led to egregious failures of due diligence and discipline, while putting the actual responsibility of making decisions in the hands of private contractors and junior officers with no experience beyond ripping their mates at Destiny. They offer the potential of handing over warfare to automated systems in a situation where no single person can be held accountable for mistargeting. It’s as if someone watched The Terminator and came away with the lesson that we need to build better a better killbot than Arnold Schwarzenegger so we can more efficiently wipe out the enemy, whomever we might decide that to be.

Stranger

I have an idea. Why don’t we take very young kids who are extremely talented at video games and show a high degree of intelligence, train them in simulations to pilot drones, and then when we need to take on a really tough drone mission, we keep them in the dark about it, so they think they’re still playing the game as a training exercise.

Weren’t you supposed to post that in Cafe Society ;)?

Curiously a NOVA documentary mentioned that those young kids are better for the job, the air force surprisingly found that experienced pilots had more trouble adapting to flying drones.

We could call it “Battle School”. :wink:

The rhetoric of legally immune killers In the government has always couched the discussion of drones in terms of their “precision”. This stems criticism of their use in state sponsored assassinations, and therefore stems criticism of the assassinations themselves. If the assassination program had been using hydrogen bombs instead of drones, political opposition to the program would be insurmountable (hopefully). So, yes, there is a reason to criticize drones in particular besides just criticizing state sponsored assassination. The propaganda of “drone precision” is the missing link that pedantic statists up thread are missing. Since “drone precision” is largely a myth peddled by sick killers in the government (see Obama’s BFF Brennan’s obfuscation), specifically criticizing drones is important to anyone who values human life and rule of law.