# White America doesn't understand democracy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169 "2018-11-08T00:39:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/81 "2018-11-09T15:11:24Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The Presidential election process makes no claim to be purely Democratic. Why is it necessarily “white supremacy”? What does voter suppression have to do with the electoral college system? Indeed, and the problem is that the archaic constitution that we use today is a hand-me-down from a slave-owning society, which makes us an inherently flawed ‘democracy’ (democratic republic) by today’s standards. You can make the elitist argument that the Framers of the Constitution wanted an elitist society and that we should preserve that kind of society because, well, that’s what our ancestors wanted. Or we can acknowledge that we have an outdated political system that engenders socioeconomic inequality, not so coincidentally along racial lines (because after all, that’s what our ancestors wanted). America has never dealt with its social inequality, and therein lies the festering crisis that threatens to undo the entire system, even if we’re too blinded by our smart phones and Netflix to understand it just yet. ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/82 "2018-11-09T15:21:12Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > So in other words, you have created a construct in your head and are calling it “white America”. Got it. > > Empathizing with other human beings, especially with those whose looks or culture are unfamiliar to you, is a difficult thing, no matter what your color or class. Lack of empathy is a major problem in the US, but it is not a problem that is unique to “white America”. _Finally_, a white person admits it. Thank you. Thank you. But, the fact that you wrote that means you’re a borderline psychopath. White folks are uncaring and hateful but I - like most of people of color - do not deny the humanity of white folks. We [fear you](https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article155996604.html) (start video at 1:25) because we know you deny us ours. When one of your white supremacist cops die, people of color do not celebrate in the streets. When your white children smear semen on oreos and eat them, people of color do not laugh. When you and your children go on shooting sprees in movie theaters, places of worship, and open air concerts, people of color weep with you during your grief. When your community is ravaged by opioids, people of color do not cheer. In contrast, white folks openly debase themselves, each other, and engage in schadenfreude with one another. You have white folks referring to each other as NPCs, propagating conspiracy theories about one another, screaming about “liberal tears” and “owning the libs”. There are[video montages](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_IdldGMa4I) of liberals crying. Who the fuck watches this shit? As a person of color, I am left with the belief that white folks treat their goddamned animals (mostly dogs) better than they treat themselves and people of color. And white liberals need to wake the fuck up and leave the Democratic Party. It is for your safety, not ours. Dehumanization is the first step to genocide and white folks ain’t fucking around this time. Ya’ll not even human to them anymore and they oppose you because they despise you. And, please, let’s be clear. White folks didn’t abandon the liberals because of abortion or healthcare; in fact, these are issues that white folks could and would happily compromise on. White folks abandoned you because you stubbornly insist on supporting social justice issues like integration, affirmative action, and voting rights and laws that prohibit housing discrimination and employment discrimination. If you ceased your support, white folks would welcome you back instantly. I would consider their offer because because ya’ll not ready the war they are waging. But, if insist on jeopardizing your life and staying in the party, hand over the leadership to people of color because you’re doing a terrible job at it. Having a Speaker/Minority Leader Waters or Senate Majority/Minority Leader Booker would put the fear of the God back into these Republicans. And it’s exactly the counterpoint that needs to be made right now. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/83 "2018-11-09T15:29:37Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > He did say “white Americans” as you can see above. It may not have been part of the OP but it shows that it is what he meant in the OP. He said “white Americans” in direct response to being asked if he was a white american. I do not see how a question answered in post 13 has an impact on the meaning of the OP. Most white americans are part of white america, and white america is made mostly of white americans. There are exceptions to this, but a sa general trend, you’d come out well ahead if you made a bet even with skewed odds as to whether a person was a part of white america by the color of their skin. I don’t agree with much of Asashi’s rhetoric, and don’t agree with many of his presentations, but I do agree with the sentiment. He’s not wrong. Most straight white male americans are very insulated from the challenges and dangers that face pretty much anyone who is not a straight white american male, and even the white american women do not face the same challenges that both women and men of color face. Even those of us that are aware of this insulation are still benefiting from the insulation. I can empathize with someone for being discriminated against, but I cannot truly understand it because I have not experienced it myself. That is, IMHO, white america. And we are, in fact, hopelessly naive and ignorant as to the daily life and challenge of our fellow citizens. Our insulation means that we also do not feel the effects of government policy as strongly. What do you care about stop and frisk, if you are a white guy from kansas? Would you care more about it if you were a black man in New York? We talk about gang violence in Chicago, but we are not the ones who are actually being injured and killed, it is not our loved ones that are being lost, why should we be the ones to unilaterally impose a “solution”? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/84 "2018-11-09T15:33:48Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > When your white children smear semen on oreos and eat them, people of color do not laugh. Okay, was this just in here to see if anyone is actually reading your posts? ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/85 "2018-11-09T15:40:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, was this just in here to see if anyone is actually reading your posts? [I’m afraid not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soggy_biscuit). > **[Players Forced To Eat Semen-Soaked Oreos In Hazing Ritual](https://newsone.com/1689995/players-forced-to-eat-semen-soaked-oreos-in-hazing-ritual/)** > > Players at a basketball camp in Beverly, Massachusetts claim they were were forced to eat Oreo cookies that were drenched in semen, according to police. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/86 "2018-11-09T15:46:20Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > [I’m afraid not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soggy_biscuit). > > [Players Forced To Eat Semen Soaked Oreos In Hazing Ritual](https://newsone.com/1689995/players-forced-to-eat-semen-soaked-oreos-in-hazing-ritual/) Don’t care if you are black or white you are allowed to laugh at that. (If you can laugh through the vomit, anyway) ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/87 "2018-11-09T16:20:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Leaving aside the matter of the different states having representation in Congress and in the Electoral College (ETA: that is disproportionate to population): > > Why shouldn’t “Democracy” without any qualifiers be the unquestioned ideal **within** each state? > > The Founders didn’t let everybody vote (which we’ve changed, at least with respect to adults), but nothing in the Constitution suggests that, within a state, some of our votes should count more or less than the votes of others. > > If there’s a particular theory of representation that you’re espousing that makes a case that different voters **should** be given different weight, let’s hear it. Otherwise, within each state, each person’s vote counting equally is the obvious default, and what even a kindergartener would regard as ‘fair.’ A very cogent argument. I have my thoughts of course, but I’m not espousing anything here, just asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/88 "2018-11-09T16:23:26Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Indeed, and the problem is that the archaic constitution that we use today is a hand-me-down from a slave-owning society, which makes us an inherently flawed ‘democracy’ (democratic republic) by today’s standards. You can make the elitist argument that the Framers of the Constitution wanted an elitist society and that we should preserve that kind of society because, well, that’s what our ancestors wanted. Or we can acknowledge that we have an outdated political system that engenders socioeconomic inequality, not so coincidentally along racial lines (because after all, that’s what our ancestors wanted). America has never dealt with its social inequality, and therein lies the festering crisis that threatens to undo the entire system, even if we’re too blinded by our smart phones and Netflix to understand it just yet. I’m not a big fan of the Constitution myself. My fear is that if it were scrapped, it would only be replaced by something far worse. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/89 "2018-11-09T16:28:52Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > But, the fact that you wrote that means you’re a borderline psychopath. Um, wut? > [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > White folks are uncaring and hateful but I - like most of people of color - do not deny the humanity of white folks. We [fear you](https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article155996604.html) (start video at 1:25) because we know you deny us ours. What a miserable way to go through life. Stop being afraid. Fear makes people do horrible things. If you are genuinely afraid of violence, arm yourself. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/90 "2018-11-09T17:11:20Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > _Finally_, a white person admits it. Thank you. Thank you. > > But, the fact that you wrote that means you’re a borderline psychopath. White folks are uncaring and hateful but I - like most of people of color - do not deny the humanity of white folks. We [fear you](https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article155996604.html) (start video at 1:25) because we know you deny us ours. When one of your white supremacist cops die, people of color do not celebrate in the streets. When your white children smear semen on oreos and eat them, people of color do not laugh. When you and your children go on shooting sprees in movie theaters, places of worship, and open air concerts, people of color weep with you during your grief. When your community is ravaged by opioids, people of color do not cheer. In contrast, white folks openly debase themselves, each other, and engage in schadenfreude with one another. You have white folks referring to each other as NPCs, propagating conspiracy theories about one another, screaming about “liberal tears” and “owning the libs”. There are[video montages](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_IdldGMa4I) of liberals crying. Who the fuck watches this shit? As a person of color, I am left with the belief that white folks treat their goddamned animals (mostly dogs) better than they treat themselves and people of color. > > And white liberals need to wake the fuck up and leave the Democratic Party. It is for your safety, not ours. Dehumanization is the first step to genocide and white folks ain’t fucking around this time. Ya’ll not even human to them anymore and they oppose you because they despise you. And, please, let’s be clear. White folks didn’t abandon the liberals because of abortion or healthcare; in fact, these are issues that white folks could and would happily compromise on. White folks abandoned you because you stubbornly insist on supporting social justice issues like integration, affirmative action, and voting rights and laws that prohibit housing discrimination and employment discrimination. If you ceased your support, white folks would welcome you back instantly. I would consider their offer because because ya’ll not ready the war they are waging. But, if insist on jeopardizing your life and staying in the party, hand over the leadership to people of color because you’re doing a terrible job at it. Having a Speaker/Minority Leader Waters or Senate Majority/Minority Leader Booker would put the fear of the God back into these Republicans. And it’s exactly the counterpoint that needs to be made right now. This is a hell of a week to say F the dems, isn’t it? We might not have survived a republican house this cycle. There are no good alternate scenarios to tuesdays results. The dems gave us the best we could hope for. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/91 "2018-11-09T18:54:00Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > What is this thread about? About two pages, now. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/92 "2018-11-09T19:15:27Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > [I’m afraid not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soggy_biscuit). > > [Players Forced To Eat Semen Soaked Oreos In Hazing Ritual](https://newsone.com/1689995/players-forced-to-eat-semen-soaked-oreos-in-hazing-ritual/) That’s admittedly messed up. Can we undraft them? > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m not a big fan of the Constitution myself. > > My fear is that if it were scrapped, it would only be replaced by something far worse. What’s wrong with the constitution? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/93 "2018-11-09T19:23:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > He said “white Americans” in direct response to being asked if he was a white american. I do not see how a question answered in post 13 has an impact on the meaning of the OP. > > Most white americans are part of white america, and white america is made mostly of white americans. There are exceptions to this, but a sa general trend, you’d come out well ahead if you made a bet even with skewed odds as to whether a person was a part of white america by the color of their skin. > > I don’t agree with much of Asashi’s rhetoric, and don’t agree with many of his presentations, but I do agree with the sentiment. He’s not wrong. Most straight white male americans are very insulated from the challenges and dangers that face pretty much anyone who is not a straight white american male, and even the white american women do not face the same challenges that both women and men of color face. Even those of us that are aware of this insulation are still benefiting from the insulation. I can empathize with someone for being discriminated against, but I cannot truly understand it because I have not experienced it myself. > > That is, IMHO, white america. And we are, in fact, hopelessly naive and ignorant as to the daily life and challenge of our fellow citizens. Our insulation means that we also do not feel the effects of government policy as strongly. What do you care about stop and frisk, if you are a white guy from kansas? Would you care more about it if you were a black man in New York? We talk about gang violence in Chicago, but we are not the ones who are actually being injured and killed, it is not our loved ones that are being lost, why should we be the ones to unilaterally impose a “solution”? I, as a white person in america, super-agree that most white people in america have no idea or appreciation whatsoever of how life is for non-whites in america. I don’t agree this makes _democracy_ incomprehensible to us though. Democracy and its mechanics are a way simpler thing to understand than the life experiences of others, and I think that white americans are able to grasp democracy just fine. A little too fine, honeslty, since we’re actually gaming the system. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/94 "2018-11-09T19:45:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Leaving aside the matter of the different states having representation in Congress and in the Electoral College (ETA: that is disproportionate to population): > > Why shouldn’t “Democracy” without any qualifiers be the unquestioned ideal within each state? > > The Founders didn’t let everybody vote (which we’ve changed, at least with respect to adults), but nothing in the Constitution suggests that, within a state, some of our votes should count more or less than the votes of others. > > If there’s a particular theory of representation that you’re espousing that makes a case that different voters should be given different weight, let’s hear it. Otherwise, within each state, each person’s vote counting equally is the obvious default, and what even a kindergartener would regard as ‘fair.’ The Constitution guarantees to each state a republican form of government. Not a democracy, a republic, and the distinction is important. A bicameral legislature, which I believe is how all but one of the states do it, is not a violation of that clause. How the states set up their respective state senates is up to that state. They don’t have to have a senate, but they can if they want, and most of them do. If you think it is obvious that a senate is the wrong way to go about things, you would have to convince the voters of the several states. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/95 "2018-11-09T20:01:19Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > When your white children smear semen on oreos and eat them, people of color do not laugh. Wait, WHAT? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/96 "2018-11-09T20:30:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What’s wrong with the constitution? I believe in subsidiarity. The Constitution is much too centralizing. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/97 "2018-11-09T20:54:08Z")
Huey, do you literally hate all white people? Even the “woke” ones with Ta-Nehisi Coates on their bookshelves and who donate all their expendable income to charities to help African Americans? They too need to shut up and go away? Because that’s the vibe I’m getting from you. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/98 "2018-11-09T21:00:04Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Unfortunately for that argument “straight white male nominally Christian Americans” are a minority of white Americans. > > And if we narrow it down to the real people the left complains about its really “straight white male nominally Christian rural Americans with no more than a high school diploma.” And that is yet a smaller subset of white Americans. > > But hey, paint a white transgendered urban Jewish 22 year old with a college education who at sometime in their life put up with misogynistic bullshit and harrassment with the same brush as the guy whose third generation tractor supply business is going under with the industrialization of farming in North Dakota. Because all of white America is the same. Not all of white America is the same, and neither are all “straight white male nominally Christian rural Americans with no more than a high school diploma.” What is the point of constantly adding qualifiers related to race, gender, religion, education, etc until you get to the group that the left complains about when you can just say “bigots”? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/99 "2018-11-09T22:56:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The Constitution guarantees to each state a republican form of government. Not a democracy, a republic, and the distinction is important. A bicameral legislature, which I believe is how all but one of the states do it, is not a violation of that clause. How the states set up their respective state senates is up to that state. > > They don’t have to have a senate, but they can if they want, and most of them do. If you think it is obvious that a senate is the wrong way to go about things, you would have to convince the voters of the several states. > > Regards, > Shodan You realize, of course, that exactly none of that even attempts to rebut anything I said. But thanks for checking in. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/100 "2018-11-09T23:08:51Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I, as a white person in america, super-agree that most white people in america have no idea or appreciation whatsoever of how life is for non-whites in america. > > I don’t agree this makes _democracy_ incomprehensible to us though. Democracy and its mechanics are a way simpler thing to understand than the life experiences of others, and I think that white americans are able to grasp democracy just fine. A little too fine, honeslty, since we’re actually gaming the system. Do we understand democracy, as in the dictionary definition, as in what it means ideally? Sure we do. Even if some incorrectly (and repeatedly) insist that democracy can only mean direct voting of the people on all issues. Do we understand the pitfalls of democracy, how the majority can ride over the minority, how participation in a democracy can be denied? No, we really do not, not unless we have actually experienced this ourselves. That we are gaming the system means that we do not understand what democracy actually is, we just understand how to deny it to others. If we understood democracy, we would do our best to ensure that the system is not gamed, and that all perspectives had an equal opportunity to have their voices heard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169.md?page=6)