# White America doesn't understand democracy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169 "2018-11-08T00:39:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/101 "2018-11-09T23:13:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do we understand democracy, as in the dictionary definition, as in what it means ideally? Sure we do. Even if some incorrectly (and repeatedly) insist that democracy can only mean direct voting of the people on all issues. > > Do we understand the pitfalls of democracy, how the majority can ride over the minority, how participation in a democracy can be denied? No, we really do not, not unless we have actually experienced this ourselves. > > That we are gaming the system means that we do not understand what democracy actually is, we just understand how to deny it to others. If we understood democracy, we would do our best to ensure that the system is not gamed, and that all perspectives had an equal opportunity to have their voices heard. I’m pretty sure the fact that “we” are deliberately overriding the minority and denying participation to others pretty strongly suggests that “we” do in fact understand how these things can happen. What’s not understood is that it’s a bad thing, but to the “we” perpetrating it it actually isn’t a bad thing, because “we” are racist evil shitheads who see no problem with crushing minorities, even (especially) when the minorities outnumber “us”. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/102 "2018-11-09T23:40:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > He said “white Americans” in direct response to being asked if he was a white american. I do not see how a question answered in post 13 has an impact on the meaning of the OP. > > Most white americans are part of white america, and white america is made mostly of white americans. There are exceptions to this, but a sa general trend, you’d come out well ahead if you made a bet even with skewed odds as to whether a person was a part of white america by the color of their skin. > > I don’t agree with much of Asashi’s rhetoric, and don’t agree with many of his presentations, but I do agree with the sentiment. He’s not wrong. Most straight white male americans are very insulated from the challenges and dangers that face pretty much anyone who is not a straight white american male, and even the white american women do not face the same challenges that both women and men of color face. Even those of us that are aware of this insulation are still benefiting from the insulation. I can empathize with someone for being discriminated against, but I cannot truly understand it because I have not experienced it myself. > > That is, IMHO, white america. And we are, in fact, hopelessly naive and ignorant as to the daily life and challenge of our fellow citizens. Our insulation means that we also do not feel the effects of government policy as strongly. What do you care about stop and frisk, if you are a white guy from kansas? Would you care more about it if you were a black man in New York? We talk about gang violence in Chicago, but we are not the ones who are actually being injured and killed, it is not our loved ones that are being lost, why should we be the ones to unilaterally impose a “solution”? He said “white americans have no clue how their democracy works”, which is a paraphrase of the OP. The title of the thread is “white america doesnt understand democracy”. So when he later says the exact same thing about white americans, it shows that he is not making the distinction between the terms that you are asserting he is. He didnt say “most” or “many”, he said white americans. ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/103 "2018-11-09T23:55:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m pretty sure the fact that “we” are deliberately overriding the minority and denying participation to others pretty strongly suggests that “we” do in fact understand how these things can happen. > > What’s not understood is that it’s a bad thing, but to the “we” perpetrating it it actually isn’t a bad thing, because “we” are racist evil shitheads who see no problem with crushing minorities, even (especially) when the minorities outnumber “us”. This is the correct answer. Although the one thing “we” don’t understand is that the more power is consolidated, the less the ruling class needs poor white people and can ramp up the abuse of them with the same authoritarian norms “we” all allowed to be put into place. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/104 "2018-11-10T00:05:05Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m not sure I agree with that, but I’m willing to be proven wrong. > > The South has a legacy of being run by a small minority (the wealthy, landed class), kind of a neo-feudal system, in which the vast majority of the population, both white and black, had virtually no education and no power. This is true, but the landed wealthy group used identity politics to keep the poor divided. That is a common tactic the entire world over (this is why the billionaire ruling class in Saudi Arabia use religious identity politics to keep their citizens mad at Jews and Shi’ite muslims, so they won’t direct their rage at the kleptocrats). But the southern whites fully subscribed to the divisive identity politics used there. It isn’t wrong to say that many in the south fully supported Jim Crow. Also whites in the south could vote, they could’ve easily voted to end Jim Crow but chose not to. I’m not saying all southern whites are bad, or that all whites outside the south are good, or that whites are the only bad people out there. But southern whites as a group do have a long history of brutality towards those whose race and class are different from theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/105 "2018-11-10T15:26:18Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > Not all of white America is the same, and neither are all “straight white male nominally Christian rural Americans with no more than a high school diploma.” > > What is the point of constantly adding qualifiers related to race, gender, religion, education, etc until you get to the group that the left complains about when you can just say “bigots”? And that is exactly the point, isn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/106 "2018-11-10T16:19:32Z")
The author of [this article](https://fee.org/articles/fa-harper-the-greatest-threat-to-liberty-is-the-idea-that-democracy-guarantees-freedom/?utm_source=zapier&utm&fbclid=IwAR2UHRtn9eiL3aafpP3istyTEXeMlIVYQv5d-8S-wxfl6TPts-rYTZH-8B4) makes the argument that Democracy is a means and not an end to the greater ideal of liberty. Democracy can become destructive to liberty, as we have seen and are seeing. A quote from the article: _"This illusion, that the democratic process is the same as liberty, is an ideal weapon for those few who may desire to destroy liberty and to replace it with some form of authoritarian society…Liberty can easily be taken from the individual citizen, piece by piece and always more and more, as more and more persons come under the spell of the same illusion.”_ ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/107 "2018-11-10T16:37:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m pretty sure the fact that “we” are deliberately overriding the minority and denying participation to others pretty strongly suggests that “we” do in fact understand how these things can happen. > > What’s not understood is that it’s a bad thing, but to the “we” perpetrating it it actually isn’t a bad thing, because “we” are racist evil shitheads who see no problem with crushing minorities, even (especially) when the minorities outnumber “us”. And that’s what I said. We do know how to make democracy work for us. We do not understand that it does not work out so well for some others, as we are not those others that democracy is not working out for. I’m a straight white guy who bitches about what the republicans are doing… but I’m bitching about what the republicans are doing _to other people_, to be honest, I’m actually doing pretty well. If you are a minority, then you get to watch a bunch of white people vote over your fate. You get to be subject to laws and policies made by people who have no understanding of how those laws and policies affect you. You may even be disenfranchised and removed from the ability to have even a tiny voice in how you are governed. Someone who is a victim of democracy has a much better understanding of it than someone who benefits from it. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > He said “white americans have no clue how their democracy works”, which is a paraphrase of the OP. The title of the thread is “white america doesnt understand democracy”. So when he later says the exact same thing about white americans, it shows that he is not making the distinction between the terms that you are asserting he is. I see it very differently, in that in that post, he was responding to a question that used the term “white americans”, rather than the term that he used, “white america”. In responding to the question, he used the same terms as the questioner. They are not the “exact same thing”, one is a statement of culture, you note that it is used in singular sense, and is says that that singular culture doesn’t understand democracy as a concept. Later, in a response directly asked about “white americans”, he answers differently, using the plural, and also using the possessive, of “their democracy”, rather than the concept of democracy itself as he used in the OP. You note in the OP he said “people threatened with persecution”, which would include LGBTQ individuals, including white ones. > [@](#): > > He didnt say “most” or “many”, he said white americans. He also didn’t say “all”, so the comparative qualifier is left up to what the reader decides to read into the statement. I’ll agree that that is problematic rhetorically, as the reader may choose to read uncharitable things into that blank space. To make it into a qualifying statement, I will estimate that 93% of “white americans have no clue how their democracy works.” #notallwhiteamericans ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/108 "2018-11-10T17:23:19Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And that is exactly the point, isn’t it. Is it? I honestly have no idea what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/109 "2018-11-14T07:33:15Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > [I’m afraid not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soggy_biscuit). > > [Players Forced To Eat Semen Soaked Oreos In Hazing Ritual](https://newsone.com/1689995/players-forced-to-eat-semen-soaked-oreos-in-hazing-ritual/) I’m sorry but I gotta call shenanigans on this one. This is urban legend. Nothing more. I mean, i believe the hazing stories but the notion that boys just beginning to discover their sexuality would _ever_ let _anyone_ see them masturbate, much less jerk off in large groups onto cookies and feed them to each other is about as laughable and anti-how-young-teenage-boys-behave as the urban legend of “circle jerks”. Ive never met, seen, read about or heard of a single solitary person who actually participated in these group masturbating games. I DO leave room for the possibility that the world is vast and i am but one man, my knowledge of the breadth of human behavior desperately lacking. But this. Just. No. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/110 "2018-11-14T13:02:38Z")
Still pissed that they wouldn’t let you pledge, eh? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/111 "2018-11-14T13:48:38Z")
Wasn’t there a doper here who used to claim that he had participated in a circle jerk? And I don’t mean figuratively, but a literal circle jerk, he brought it up a lot. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/112 "2018-12-09T00:11:03Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Has **asahi** ever suggested any reasonable courses of action for those of us on the left side of the political spectrum? All I ever see is where he craps over everyone else for believing that we’re not all doomed. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > There’s been A LOT of marching in the streets over the past two years. Some of the biggest marches ever. > > (Just in case you were wondering, marches went out of style among us left-of-center types when hundreds of thousands of us marched against the Iraq War in the run-up to that, and we were barely covered in the news, so of course we made no dent at all on public opinion.) > You may have noticed that Congresscritters started getting a lot more calls in 2017. Not sure how that’s holding up, but it happened. Also, you may have heard that people have been showing up at town halls - when Congresscritters have them. > > I’ve done some marching, and a lot of phone calling. No town hall opportunities. See above. Yeah well, I’m trying to figure out what **asahi** ’s alternative plan of action IS. We’re doing stuff already, thanks. Like I said earlier, _what’s the opportunity cost of what we’re already doing? What should we be doing that what we’re doing now is getting in the way of?_ > > In the absence of some answers there, he isn’t on my side; he’s an underminer. > > OK, here’s what’s unreasonable: > > 1. Armed resistance is unreasonable. > > 2. Magical Pony Plans are unreasonable. You know, the ones that go, “if we only did X, Americans would rise up and almost bodily eject the Trumpublicans from power,” or anything else with similar degrees of wishful thinking. I’m too old for fairy tales. > > That’s it. Same thing just happened in the “lame-duck power grab in Wisconsin” thread: asahi was doing his usual pissing on Dems and liberals: “What are you gonna do about it? Sit there and snivel?” [he asked](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21361582&postcount=100). I reminded him of what I’d asked him in this thread, and just like in this thread, he disappeared. (Yes, I’m using this thread as an **asahi** Pitting. I’ve gotten really tired of his “whatever you’re doing to oppose Trump and the GOP is wrong, but I have no alternative to propose” act. He needs to put up or shut up.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/113 "2018-12-09T00:30:15Z")
Why? No one ever asked Chicken Little for his sky buttressing plans. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/114 "2018-12-09T04:27:22Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Jesus Christ, rich Republican Naperville turns blue for the first time in ever, and that’s not enough for you??? > [@PackerMan](#): > > Actually, it was those of us slumming in A Town that got Underwood in. Between Healthcare and Immigration issues, enough of us finally got out and voted. Bet TPTW regret annexing so much area that could eventually been bought by the Wrong Sort. > [@asahi](#): > > But go ahead and be smug. No, please. Go ahead. You have smugness enough to share. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/115 "2018-12-09T16:43:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Same thing just happened in the “lame-duck power grab in Wisconsin” thread: asahi was doing his usual pissing on Dems and liberals: “What are you gonna do about it? Sit there and snivel?” [he asked](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21361582&postcount=100). I reminded him of what I’d asked him in this thread, and just like in this thread, he disappeared. > > (Yes, I’m using this thread as an **asahi** Pitting. I’ve gotten really tired of his “whatever you’re doing to oppose Trump and the GOP is wrong, but I have no alternative to propose” act. He needs to put up or shut up.) Asashi is a canary in the coal mine. He’s not wrong that we are on a bad path, and he’s not wrong that we really need to do something about it, and he’s not wrong that it does not appear as though we are doing enough. His delivery leaves a “little bit” to be desired, and I never appreciate people bringing me problems without bringing me solutions, but I’d rather problems be pointed out than ignored. We can try to talk him off the ledge, but while we are doing that, we should also probably send someone in to put out the fire that he is going on about. ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/116 "2018-12-09T18:35:36Z")
Some people think voter suppression when it is more about holding them accountable. Where I work I know of legal aliens who vote. This is a problem. Yet whenever I bring it up, people dismiss it. If one person is doing it, it needs to be addressed. But it never is. As for the topic, our country was founded by people who were well aware of the disadvantages of democracy as being mob rule by the massives. This is why we have “undemocratic” checks on them. Anyone who says “White people,” are making a generalized racist statement. If you substitute the “white people” with “black people” would anyone in this thread think it’s OK? Of course not, racism is about all races. Until you deal with that, you won’t understand, because you don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/117 "2018-12-09T19:02:33Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > Some people think voter suppression when it is more about holding them accountable. Where I work I know of legal aliens who vote. This is a problem. Yet whenever I bring it up, people dismiss it. If one person is doing it, it needs to be addressed. But it never is. No you don’t. It might be problem if it were happening, but it isn’t. > [@Carryon](#): > > Anyone who says “White people,” are making a generalized racist statement. If you substitute the “white people” with “black people” would anyone in this thread think it’s OK? Of course not, racism is about all races. Until you deal with that, you won’t understand, because you don’t want to. :rolleyes: Bless your heart; aren’t you special? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/118 "2018-12-09T19:04:18Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > Some people think voter suppression when it is more about holding them accountable. Where I work I know of legal aliens who vote. This is a problem. Yet whenever I bring it up, people dismiss it. If one person is doing it, it needs to be addressed. But it never is. Have you brought it up with the board of elections or with other authorities, or just with people on message boards or others who have no way of doing anything about your accusations? I’ll dismiss some random person making some random unsubstantiated accusation of that sort, so if you are expecting random people on the internet to take up your cuase, you are hopelessly naive. If you are actually contacting the board of elections, and providing them with the evidence that you have that allows you to _know_ of legal aliens voting, and they dismiss is, then that is a problem, but I do doubt that that is the case. > [@](#): > > As for the topic, our country was founded by people who were well aware of the disadvantages of democracy as being mob rule by the massives. This is why we have “undemocratic” checks on them. They were also aware of the disadvantages of not having the consent of the governed. Of course, they also owned slaves. > [@](#): > > Anyone who says “White people,” are making a generalized racist statement. If you substitute the “white people” with “black people” would anyone in this thread think it’s OK? Of course not, racism is about all races. Until you deal with that, you won’t understand, because you don’t want to. Nah, anyone saying “white people” is talking about something that applies primarily towards white people. As the majority in power, it doesn’t really hurt that much for there to be a generalization or tow about how that power affects people that are not white. It is in fact white people who have the power in this country, and it is up to white people to decide whether that power is used fairly and equitably. When you talk about “black people” you are not talking about the people who are in power, and so if you are generalizing, then you are generalizing on how people react to being oppressed. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/119 "2018-12-09T19:57:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Asashi is a canary in the coal mine. He’s not wrong that we are on a bad path, and he’s not wrong that we really need to do something about it, and he’s not wrong that it does not appear as though we are doing enough. That is not remotely what a “canary in a coal mine” is. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/120 "2018-12-09T20:15:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That is not remotely what a “canary in a coal mine” is. No, it is a metaphor. I am not actually saying that Asashi is a bird whose purpose is to pass out if the air turns bad. However, like a canary being more sensitive to bad air, and giving a warning to others before they too are overcome, Asashi is more sensitive to perceived authoritarian moves, and gives a warning to others before they too are overcome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169.md?page=7)