# White America doesn't understand democracy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169 "2018-11-08T00:39:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/121 "2018-12-09T20:31:14Z")
What are you, a fucking moron? Of course it’s a metaphor and that metaphor doesn’t describe asahi’s wild cries of impending doom. He’s not more sensitive to jack shit. There’s a reason he refuses to make any real predictions, it’s because flailing ambiguous shit is never truly totally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/122 "2018-12-09T20:42:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What are you, a fucking moron? Of course it’s a metaphor and that metaphor doesn’t describe asahi’s wild cries of impending doom. He’s not more sensitive to jack shit. There’s a reason he refuses to make any real predictions, it’s because flailing ambiguous shit is never truly totally wrong. Fuck off. Asashi may be annoying and hysterical, but you are just a tiresome and boring troll. Trying to be the metaphor police over here, what kind of stupid piece of shit dumbass are you? Obviously, he is more sensitive, as he is the one screaming wild cries of impending doom, while others are not. Obviously, he’s not making predictions, as a canary doesn’t really make predictions, they just pass out. But, you are obviously very sensitive about this subject for some reason. Did a metaphor hurt you? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/123 "2018-12-09T20:46:38Z")
I’m not a troll for pointing out you didn’t know what “canary in a coal mine” means. I know you googled it and tried to retcon your meaning but it’s kinda obvious. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/124 "2018-12-09T20:56:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m not a troll for pointing out you didn’t know what “canary in a coal mine” means. I know you googled it and tried to retcon your meaning but it’s kinda obvious. Ah, you have mind reading now too? You and Shodan attend the same seances together? My mind reading skills tell me that you had to look up “metaphor” before you realized that I wasn’t literally calling Asashi a bird. (My mind reading skills are probably on par with yours, but I’ll at least admit that they are pretty nominal, at best.) Now, if you don’t agree that Asashi qualifies as an early warning for others, that there are reasons why his warnings are false or otherwise not useful, then that’s a conversation that we could have, and I could have a give and take on exactly what points of the metaphor fit, and what don’t. But if you are going to come out of the gate being accusatory about my knowledge of a very well known metaphor, and making spurious claims as to having to look it up on google, then I have no interest in playing games with a troll like yourself. Next time, try to be less pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/125 "2018-12-09T21:02:46Z")
My mind reading skills is mostly understanding English. Even in your follow up post, you misunderstand the meaning. A canary in a coal mine isn’t a super sensitive observer who notices things for you. Frogs dying off is a “canary in the coal mine” for deeper ecological damage. The biologist who announces less frogs is not. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/126 "2018-12-09T21:31:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > My mind reading skills is mostly understanding English. Even in your follow up post, you misunderstand the meaning. A canary in a coal mine isn’t a super sensitive observer who notices things for you. Frogs dying off is a “canary in the coal mine” for deeper ecological damage. The biologist who announces less frogs is not. Then your understanding of English is about as bad as your mind reading skills. Full disclosure, when you first posted your out of the blue accusations, I had considered googling the phrase, as, while I have obviously heard it, and obviously know that it is a metaphor for something that it more sensitive to adverse conditions, I have no idea how apocryphal it is. I don’t know if it was ever really a thing, or how effective it is. I don’t know if it is something that one guy did once, or was company policy for generations. I don’t know when the phrase originated, nor how it became widespread. There are quite a few things that I don’t know about a simple metaphor that I used, except for its primary, which is something that is highly sensitive to adverse conditions. Like I said, if you had wanted to make an argument that Asashi doesn’t qualify as a canary, that he is not overly sensitive to adverse conditions, then that is a rational debate, and I don’t know that I would die on that hill. But you went full on stupid, in accusing me of not knowing a simple metaphor, so you have lost any sort of credibility. This outs you as just another boring troll. And since you don’t have any interest in any sort of actual debate here, and are just trying to score some internet points that you keep tallied on your monitor, I have no interest in continuing this extremely boring exchange. You are dismissed now, troll. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/127 "2018-12-09T21:51:11Z")
Lol, yeah pile on verbiage and call me stupid. That’ll show everyone how right you are. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/128 "2018-12-10T03:21:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Nah, anyone saying “white people” is talking about something that applies primarily towards white people. As the majority in power, it doesn’t really hurt that much for there to be a generalization or tow about how that power affects people that are not white. > > It is in fact white people who have the power in this country, and it is up to white people to decide whether that power is used fairly and equitably. > > When you talk about “black people” you are not talking about the people who are in power, and so if you are generalizing, then you are generalizing on how people react to being oppressed. Words have meaning. Just because one type of racism is less damaging doesn’t make it not racism. Having cancer is a lot worse than having a stomach flu. But they’re still both diseases. Doesn’t mean they’re equivalent. Doesn’t mean people with cancer wouldn’t be overjoyed to merely have stomach flu. And if it’s a choice between stomach flu and no stomach flu, you’re going to choose the one where you’re healthy. Hating on whites doesn’t do nearly the damage that hating on blacks does. Doesn’t make it harmless. As the very least, you’re accustoming yourself to judging people by stereotypes and generalizations, and that’s not a healthy mindset to have. …sorry, carry on. I just had to get that off my chest. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/129 "2018-12-10T15:02:52Z")
Sadly, I think most folk are not interested in Democracy either - the only time that they raise their heads and look around is when they happen to fall foul of some aspect of society rules and regulations and then they are all about complaining over their rights being infringed - but up to that point it seems to me most folk really don’t give too much of a f\*ck about democracy. Example - what percentage of the population actually votes? Next, how many of those actually turned up for local meetings and debates? How many folk actually visit their representatives and put their views across? How many of us here actually inform ourselves properly on all the matters that affect us that are controlled by our representatives - from national issues right down to how your local schools and roads are operated? How many of us on this message board think that trade unions are a problem and are a hindrance to democracy? We have a system of representative democracy and we choose not to involve ourselves much - then we complain when decisions are made that we dislike. Mostly we would rather be left alone and not have to trouble ourselves with the larger picture. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/130 "2018-12-11T02:54:06Z")
Um, fuck off, you’re dumb. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/131 "2018-12-11T03:25:41Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Um, fuck off, you’re dumb. No you fuck off. What your blathering idiot defender k9bfriender doesn’t either know or remember, is that more than once you dreamed dreamy dreams of a military man coming in and eventually handing back democracy. You are no goddamned canary in a coal mine for authoritarianism, you’re a fuckhead willing to dip your toe into it if you think it’s necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/132 "2018-12-11T04:56:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > As best as I can tell, **asahi** is just giving himself one more opportunity to laugh at everyone who thinks there might be hope for America short of armed revolution. > > I’m not a big fan of cynicism in the first place, but some cynics are at least _interesting_. **asahi** is just tiresome. > > I was thinking he was getting to the point of having earned a Pit thread of his own. He’s saved me the trouble of starting one, AFAIAC, because here it is. Do eet. He’s a tiresome whiner who gets more shrill whenever he drunk posts. > [@CarnalK](#): > > What are you, a fucking moron? Of course it’s a metaphor and that metaphor doesn’t describe asahi’s wild cries of impending doom. He’s not more sensitive to jack shit. There’s a reason he refuses to make any real predictions, it’s because flailing ambiguous shit is never truly totally wrong. Agreed. > [@CarnalK](#): > > No you fuck off. What your blathering idiot defender k9bfriender doesn’t either know or remember, is that more than once you dreamed dreamy dreams of a military man coming in and eventually handing back democracy. You are no goddamned canary in a coal mine for authoritarianism, you’re a fuckhead willing to dip your toe into it if you think it’s necessary. **Asahi** is all kinds of crazy. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/133 "2018-12-11T06:05:57Z")
I know I’m late, but I simply want to point this out: republic: a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch. A republic is a kind of democracy, so shove that capital-R Republican talking point down your throat. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/134 "2018-12-11T06:22:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Good for you! You’re offended by an ally, so you ignore them, which helps your opposition! Awesome! > > ETA: I bet you come back and try and argue with me about this, which only helps your opposition, which, by the way, isn’t me. Fuck off with that well-poisoning nonsense. You can’t shut down anyone who disagrees with you by saying disagreement helps the enemy. That is authoritarianism. You just described America during the Red Scare. I don’t agree with the guy on most things. He’s even on my ignore list. But, in this case, he has a point. We push this idea about how not to offend people due to their race/sex/sexuality/etc. We insist that you do not say “Black people are \_\_\_.” So it makes sense that we should do the same for white people. It’s not just remaining fair, but it puts forth an aesthetic that we apply our rules to ourselves, too. It eliminates any of the arguments that we make special concessions for minorities. And, FYI, **asahi** , by going after all white people, is attacking allies. **asahi** seems to have given up and stopped being an ally themselves, instead just posting doom and gloom and hopelessness. While I sympathize with their depression and despair, it is not actually helpful. Rebutting it, on the other hand, is. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/135 "2018-12-11T07:20:43Z")
Oh, the bigoted base fully understands democracy. That’s why they’re doing all they can to ensure the country does not really have it. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/136 "2018-12-11T13:59:22Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Seriously, it’s obvious beyond belief that white America has this cartoonish understanding of what democracy really is. I think the only people who understand democracy in America are people who’ve been denied it, people who’ve been threatened with persecution. Fucking racist. Grow up. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/137 "2018-12-11T14:32:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Asashi is a canary in the coal mine. He’s not wrong that we are on a bad path, and he’s not wrong that we really need to do something about it, and he’s not wrong that it does not appear as though we are doing enough. Well yeah. But when he comes into a thread (as he did in the Wisconsin thread) with his “wake up, sheeple!” act, only to make the same points that have been repeatedly made by others, it gets kinda tiresome. > [@](#): > > His delivery leaves a “little bit” to be desired, and I never appreciate people bringing me problems without bringing me solutions, but I’d rather problems be pointed out than ignored. The problem I have with him is when they’ve _been_ pointed out here already, but he acts like he’s the one who needs to wake us up to them. > [@](#): > > We can try to talk him off the ledge, but while we are doing that, we should also probably send someone in to put out the fire that he is going on about. Well sure. And I’m sure I’m not the only one who, off-board, is trying to do something about the fire. If I’m not doing enough, I want to know what I should be doing instead. But if it’s not mainly Dopers who aren’t doing enough, but rather some group of Dem/liberal movers and shakers who need to do more, then he needs to take his act directly to _them_, rather than complaining at _us_. We’re not a stand-in for them, and we have no more influence with them than he does. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/138 "2018-12-11T15:25:59Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Words have meaning. Just because one type of racism is less damaging doesn’t make it not racism. > > Having cancer is a lot worse than having a stomach flu. But they’re still both diseases. Doesn’t mean they’re equivalent. Doesn’t mean people with cancer wouldn’t be overjoyed to merely have stomach flu. And if it’s a choice between stomach flu and no stomach flu, you’re going to choose the one where you’re healthy. > > Hating on whites doesn’t do nearly the damage that hating on blacks does. Doesn’t make it harmless. As the very least, you’re accustoming yourself to judging people by stereotypes and generalizations, and that’s not a healthy mindset to have. > > …sorry, carry on. I just had to get that off my chest. And, there are different types of cancer. I have a benign tumor on my shoulder that’s really annoying, but not really a threat to my health. My only point in pointing out that prejudice is different when it comes from the demographic in power vs the demographic that has no power is that the difference in power does make a difference. So long as there are racists in power on “our” side, so long as there are those who represent the demographic in power who work to hold down those who are “different” then prejudice amongst those who are being oppressed is a completely natural reaction. It is not a good reaction, it is not a productive reaction, but it is a completely predictable and inevitable reaction to having prejudice used against them. I just see no need to look at minorities and complain to how they are reacting to their marginalization, and refuse to look at ourselves and how we marginalize them Make no mistake, we white people are the ones in charge. This is our mess that only we can clean up, and only if we decide to do so. While prejudice among the marginalized minority is not productive, complaining about the prejudice that minorities feel towards the oppressive majority is more than just unproductive, it is actually adding to the problem. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well yeah. But when he comes into a thread (as he did in the Wisconsin thread) with his “wake up, sheeple!” act, only to make the same points that have been repeatedly made by others, it gets kinda tiresome. Oh yeah, tiresome for sure. I pretty much just read a line at most, then skip over his posts. I don’t have him (or anyone) on ignore. I mostly only ever notice his posts when someone takes the time to stop and complain about them. (He does occasionally also have non-apocalyptic posts as well, fewer and farther between as they have become.) > [@](#): > > The problem I have with him is when they’ve _been_ pointed out here already, but he acts like he’s the one who needs to wake us up to them. Everyone feels as though they need to do something. Typing away on a messageboard is probably almost the least effective thing you can do, and probably one of the least offensive as well. I hope he’s different at parties, or I would hate to see him at parties. I can skim and skip a tiresome post. Tiresome people are harder to ignore IRL. > [@](#): > > Well sure. And I’m sure I’m not the only one who, off-board, is trying to do something about the fire. If I’m not doing enough, I want to know what I should be doing instead. We will only know if we have done enough after we find out if we did enough. Never hurts to try to do a bit more. I don’t do much about the big stuff, all my focus has been on local races, but I did help get a progressive person to replace a very conservative guy that had been on my city council for a couple decades. I hope that helped, and I hope that I won’t wish that I had done more. > [@](#): > > But if it’s not mainly Dopers who aren’t doing enough, but rather some group of Dem/liberal movers and shakers who need to do more, then he needs to take his act directly to _them_, rather than complaining at _us_. We’re not a stand-in for them, and we have no more influence with them than he does. Meh, I complain to my roommate about bad plots on TV shows, not as if he can do anything about it. There’s plenty of room for productive suggestions and advice in how to help to improve things going forward, but there’s plenty of bits available to be wasted on bitching and moaning as well. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/139 "2018-12-12T03:24:56Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Fucking racist. Grow up. Oh wait, you’re the guy who complains about reverse discrimination. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169/140 "2018-12-12T03:30:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, FYI, **asahi** , by going after all white people, is attacking allies. **asahi** seems to have given up and stopped being an ally themselves, instead just posting doom and gloom and hopelessness. While I sympathize with their depression and despair, it is not actually helpful. But what I wrote is 1000% true. Most white people (at least in America) don’t understand their own democracy - how works and how it doesn’t work. American democracy, with all of its imperfections, is a white institution. The Constitution is a document that enshrines white supremacy. I don’t expect white Americans to understand that though because they haven’t been living with the legacy and consequences of it. Even progressives don’t really get it - they just get offended when you point out that even as progressive as they are, they still don’t quite get it. American democracy enshrines white supremacy, which is why this country gets nervous when non-whites threaten to share power with whites. And that’s why Trump got elected, and that’s why even though Trump is highly unpopular, his message resonates with many whites, even those who don’t think of themselves as ‘racist’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-america-doesnt-understand-democracy/824169.md?page=8)