# White Anger! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 31, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918 "2021-01-31T13:45:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/81 "2021-02-09T16:41:50Z")
This fear of retribution is sometimes explicit. If you listen to Alex Jones, or read WorldNetDaily you will find that there is not an insignificant number of people who explicitly believe that the point of Civil Rights movement, BLM, and other social justice efforts are to make whites slaves as pay back. I used to think it was a lack of imagination. That they looked at the word with one group clearly dominant and abusive of other groups and think that is the only way it can be. If Blacks aren’t at the bottom, then whites must be. But Fred Clark convinced me otherwise. The real problem is that they can imagine. Specifically they can imagine how they would respond if they were on the other end of the abuse. And they don’t think they would react well. They are sure that if someone tried to do that to them, they would respond violently. And they know that if collective justice is a thing, they deserve it. After centuries of collective punishment and abuse towards Blacks, some whites are absolutely terrified that those types of standards will be applied to them. > **[Empathy turned to fear and resentment](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2016/01/27/empathy-turned-to-fear-and-resentment/)** > > In 1741, white New Yorkers panicked due to their fear of a potential slave revolt. That fear refutes all the nonsense we often hear about how the stark immorality of the slave system was perceived differently back in those days, and how we should all... > **[We try to control forgiveness because we know we need it](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/11/05/we-try-to-control-forgiveness-because-we-know-we-need-it/)** > > We know we need that forgiveness, desperately, and the realization that such forgiveness is out of our control drives us wild with fear. So we try to control it -- to demand it, to mandate it and expect it. Because we know. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/82 "2021-02-09T22:10:20Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Accept correction I shouldn’t insult other posters. > > I was not, for the record, calling anyone a racist. At least not intentionally. So, not being cute. That mod note was addressed to **Friendly Curmudgeon** , not you. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/83 "2021-02-09T22:13:00Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > But Fred Clark convinced me otherwise. That’s it! Just yesterday I was trying to remember the name of the Christian blogger I used to read. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/84 "2021-02-09T22:28:02Z")
Like I just said in another thread… The reasons we enter into treaties that require us to treat prisoners of war humanely isn’t that we are weak or soft or bleeding heart liberals. It’s because we want our soldiers to be treated humanely if they are taken prisoner. Which I think is one reason that Republicans are so frightened, and why they tried so desperately to cling to power. They know how they treated the opposition when they had power and they’re scared we’ll do the same things to them as they did to us. I almost wish they would, but they won’t simply because they are better human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/85 "2021-02-09T22:34:01Z")
Oh. Well, I take it all back then. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/86 "2021-02-10T14:09:42Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > The reasons we enter into treaties that require us to treat prisoners of war humanely isn’t that we are weak or soft or bleeding heart liberals. It’s because we want our soldiers to be treated humanely if they are taken prisoner. I’ve seen people argue on that basis that when we are fighting an enemy who refuses to follow the Geneva conventions (like the Taliban) we have no moral obligation to follow them ourselves (following them does come with quite some cost to our own armed forces). That seems dodgy to me. Do you think the reason you gave is the _only_ one for signing up to such treaties? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/87 "2021-02-10T16:08:37Z")
No, but it’s a major reason and the one that supports the point I am making in this thread. My post was not intended as a comprehensive analysis of POW treaties. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/88 "2021-02-11T03:59:26Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Like I just said in another thread… > > The reasons we enter into treaties that require us to treat prisoners of war humanely isn’t that we are weak or soft or bleeding heart liberals. It’s because we want our soldiers to be treated humanely if they are taken prisoner. > > Which I think is one reason that Republicans are so frightened, and why they tried so desperately to cling to power. They know how they treated the opposition when they had power and they’re scared we’ll do the same things to them as they did to us. > > I almost wish they would, but they won’t simply because they are better human beings. I think there are other practical reasons too, like not wanting your enemy to fight to the death rather than surrender. But I don’t think “White Anger” has much to do with fear of retribution. I mean, I remember see examples of it decades ago when there was less diversity or political correctness. I think some people just have an irrational aversion to anything that doesn’t fit into how they want the world to be. To them, it’s like how most people on this board felt when they saw all those Trump supporters tearing up the Capital. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/89 "2021-02-11T14:43:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But I don’t think “White Anger” has much to do with fear of retribution. I mean, I remember see examples of it decades ago when there was less diversity or political correctness. I think that was in an indirect way, as a deterrent so others (including possibly sympathetic fellow whites) would not get any ideas and be intimidated into behaving. Like the Capitol rioters thought that they would intimidate Congress into doing things their way. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/90 "2021-02-11T16:41:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > e I think the component is more that when someone says that you are privileged, or that your position is due to your privilege, it’s often (rightly or wrongly) taken as an implication that your part in it was minimal. Which pisses people off, as you might imagine, as in their own narrative, it’s all due to their own hard work and luck. There’s also a huge component of not having any real idea how other groups are underprivileged. They may not know about or understand the long term impacts of redlining for example. Stuff like long-term wealth accumulation is assumed to be/have been open to everyone, and the assumption is that if they’re not getting in on that action, it’s due to poor decision making. Or that state-level educational regulations ensure a halfway decent education even in poor schools. Or any number of other things that they just assume are the same for everyone, white, black, hispanic or otherwise, even though they may only actually be the case for certain combinations of educated, white and/or middle class or higher people. It’s ignorance, but not necessarily willful ignorance; they aren’t even quite aware enough to know where to start looking to see it. So when they come from that background of feeling like their success was earned, and that everyone else is starting from the same baseline, there is often a lot of resentment and anger when an ethnic or socio-economic group is singled out for something positive- why do “they” get that while I don’t? This is likely amplified in places like rural white communities where there isn’t any exposure to other ethnic groups except on TV, which is notoriously inaccurate in pretty much every way on that kind of thing. They see their community struggling and people suffering, and then read about social programs primarily aimed at other racial/ethnic groups, or even toward non-citizens who are breaking the law to be here, and get righteously angry that “they” are getting all this help and emphasis while they’re languishing out in the sticks. I’m not convinced that it’s at all explicitly racist either, except in the sense that they’re seeing it as one ethnic group vs. another, and feeling like they’re coming out with the short end of the stick and getting angry as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/91 "2021-02-11T20:39:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But I don’t think “White Anger” has much to do with fear of retribution. I agree that it doesn’t, but the _existence_ of it should, all else being equal, increase fear of retribution. Since humans are all pretty much the same, some people acting like total pieces of shit demonstrates that people are prone to act like shit. I don’t want a society where some people who aren’t me are subject to oppression, and I also don’t want a society where some people are subject to oppression and some people are subject to retribution (sometimes being the same people), but that seems less possible the more I see of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/92 "2021-02-11T23:30:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But I don’t think “White Anger” has much to do with fear of retribution. I mean, I remember see examples of it decades ago when there was less diversity or political correctness. I think some people just have an irrational aversion to anything that doesn’t fit into how they want the world to be. To them, it’s like how most people on this board felt when they saw all those Trump supporters tearing up the Capital. Conviction that “they” will do to “us” what “we” did to “them” has been a big motivator of white supremacy since the very beginning. Sometimes unstated, but very often stated right out loud. Look at the arguments to end Reconstructions, or in favor of Jim Crow laws. They feared that blacks with power would use that power to punish whites. > **Drew Gilpin Faust:** What turns the world most decidedly upside down for white Southerners is to take a group of people who were forbidden to bear arms, who were defined as subservient, who were forced to be subordinate, and then to put them in a position of control and to give them arms. And I think there’s a certain sense of fear of retribution here, though it’s often not expressed. “What are they going to do to me, given what we have done to them?” This is never said in an overt way. And yet for a class of people that have beaten and whipped slaves into submission, to think, “Well, what happens when we give them the instruments of power?” > **[White Southern Responses to Black Emancipation | American Experience | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/reconstruction-white-southern-responses-black-emancipation/)** > > Historians describe how white Southerners felt about black civil rights, and explain the intent of white supremacist groups. > **[Fear is at the root of America's race problem](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/06/02/commentary/world-commentary/fear-root-americas-race-problem/)** > > Race relations in the U.S. are still worse than almost anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918/93 "2021-02-12T18:58:27Z")
Interesting discussion. I was showing a film in my course on social and cultural contexts of education of the Myers family, who moved into a home in Levittown, PA in 1957. This was three years after _Brown v Board of Education,_ and now _de jure_ segregation was, at least on paper, eliminated. But there were two dominant threads of argument. The first had to do with intermarriage. White neighbors explicitly expressed concerns that having Black neighbors would lead to kids dating and eventually pumping out mixed-race babies. The other was “the Myers are upending the social order, just because they can.” Only a few surmised that the Myers simply wanted to live in a nice new home for their own purposes, not to make some political point. I think this period is important because it was a time when White people could say incredibly racist things because it was the norm. It’s clear that some of the respondents felt that the Myers were being “uppity” and violating (in their minds) the normal, justifiable racial order. I also agree there is an idea that they will be subjected to treatment that they meted out to Black, Brown, and Native people – and if they don’t think that people of color are humane, rational, and sane, the spectre of unhinged racial terror directed towards Whites is very real. I would wager that we haven’t moved far beyond this point in a lot of communities. Here’s the video (edited down to 8 min) - [Crisis in Levittown](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJMez9vkrw) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-anger/931918.md?page=4)