# White Boy Soul - Why Not Viewed As Minstrel Show? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082 "2009-05-29T20:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/1 "2009-05-29T20:26:00Z")
So, Robert Downey Jr. aside, there’s a good consensus that white people mimicking black people or “black” traits in dramatic portrayals is Not Okay. The whole Miss Saigon thing suggested the same about Asians. Though then it’s okay to have one type of Asian playing another, maybe (the Tom Cruise samurai movie). Has anyone ever suggested or thought that the wide panoply of pasty white dudes who are singing ripoffs of “black” music stylings (mainly blues and soul, and I could call out Jagger, Clapton, Cocker, Chrissy Hynde, and probably some others I am omitting) are offensive? I guess a distinction their defenders would make is that these wannabes were doing it as a homage, and thought it was desperately cool to be an old blind black Mississippian, whereas no one thought Stepin Fetchit was a dramatic tribute. Maybe to turn the question on its head, would it be okay if, for some weird reason, Matt Damon was really obsessed with, I don’t know, Joe Frazier, and donned facial prosthetics and black makeup to play Frazier in some dramatic movie role? Or if Brad Pitt blacked up and used a reasonably faithful version of Ebonics to play a Crip role? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/2 "2009-05-29T20:28:53Z")
It’s a ridiculous notion. There is no black culture, it is pop culture. In America we have a melting pot. That’s all there is to it, the melting pot. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/3 "2009-05-29T20:32:25Z")
Right. And maybe black people should stop writing novels. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/4 "2009-05-29T20:32:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Right. And maybe black people should stop writing novels. Koreans should stop playing Beethoven. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/5 "2009-05-29T20:35:03Z")
People always say stuff like “rock music just stole from black people”. They use that word “stole” as if something was forcibly taken - don’t they understand the concept of influence? Rock music was influenced by “black music.” “Black music” was also influenced by “white music.” The blues was influenced by Irish and Scottish folk ballads. Jazz was influenced by George Gershwin. It’s all a melting pot. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/6 "2009-05-29T20:37:46Z")
To be clear, I do not think it is exploitation or offensive, because I do think they all do it with extreme admiration for the art form. But it’s not ridiculous to suggest that there are unique aspects/sources of culture from particular racial or cultural milieu. The blues was, factually, developed to a disproportionate extent by rural Southern blacks. Boys in tha’ Hood would not (IMHO) have been anywhere near as powerful or good if the hood in question was Malibu or the actors were white dudes. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/7 "2009-05-29T20:43:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s a ridiculous notion. There is no black culture, it is pop culture. In America we have a melting pot. That’s all there is to it, the melting pot. Oh dear. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/8 "2009-05-29T20:55:04Z")
On the PBS documentary “The Blues” BB King expressed thanks for the white kids who kept the blues popular and him fairly well off. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/9 "2009-05-29T20:59:02Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > On the PBS documentary “The Blues” BB King expressed thanks for the white kids who kept the blues popular and him fairly well off. A fair point – and the handful of times I’ve seen him and other bluesmen live (not a huge fan), the crowd has been pretty pale. That may also have to do with the fact that he commands higher ticket prices now then when playing a juke joint in the Delta 40 years ago, too. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/10 "2009-05-29T22:19:22Z")
Before answering, mind if I ask what the 88 in your username stands for? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/11 "2009-05-30T00:05:58Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > Before answering, mind if I ask what the 88 in your username stands for? I believe he’s on record denying any connection to the Flak 88/white supremacist stuff. Re: the Op, I’m with **Argent Towers** on this. Heavy musical influence does not correlate with stealing/ripoffs. Jimmy Page and company not giving songwriting credit and royalties is stealing. Eric Clapton playing _Crossroads_ is not. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/12 "2009-05-30T07:32:52Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > Before answering, mind if I ask what the 88 in your username stands for? Yes. I do mind. But duly noted that you are wise and liberal and have just saved the minority population from my predatory ways, with my post acknowledging the merits of black-initiated blues music. And thanks for the note, **Tamerlane**. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/13 "2009-05-30T09:13:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s a ridiculous notion. There is no black culture, it is pop culture. In America we have a melting pot. That’s all there is to it, the melting pot. I don’t know where you could have gotten this notion. Just because black culture is featured prominently in pop culture does not mean there is no black culture. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/14 "2009-05-30T09:16:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > People always say stuff like “rock music just stole from black people”. They use that word “stole” as if something was forcibly taken - don’t they understand the concept of influence? Rock music was influenced by “black music.” “Black music” was also influenced by “white music.” The blues was influenced by Irish and Scottish folk ballads. Jazz was influenced by George Gershwin. It’s all a melting pot. You say that as if the blues and irish folk ballads and modern rock have nothing distinct from each other. Melting pot doesn’t mean “everyone is the same”. Irish Folk music isn’t Melting Pot music. Neither is the Blues, or Rock. They’re distinct, and each has its own history and cultural roots. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/15 "2009-05-30T09:36:03Z")
Yeah I know, I didn’t mean to imply that the music is all the same or even that it all has significant similarities; just that each has some small influences from other types of music. Of course they’re distinct. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/16 "2009-05-30T09:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > **Huerta88** : That may also have to do with the fact that he commands higher ticket prices now then when playing a juke joint in the Delta 40 years ago, too. Juke joint in the Delta? Not quite. Forty years ago B. B. King was the opening act for The Rolling Stones 1969 American Tour. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/17 "2009-05-30T09:42:36Z")
The Minstrel Show was not invented as a means of keeping blacks down–the Institution of Slavery was still doing just fine at the time. Donning blackface allowed entertainers to escape from the constraints of proper, genteel society. Many of them Just Off The Boat, they wanted more out of life than drinking tea with their pinkies in the air & listening to tasteful airs played on the parlor piano. Dancing & humor were allowed on the minstrel stage. The banjo–a purely African instrument–rang out joyously. Would modern people consider the result disrespectful of African-Americans? Of course. Forget “modern”–look to the career of [Stephen Foster](http://www.pitt.edu/~amerimus/foster.htm), the first great American songwriter: > [@](#): > > Rather than writing nostalgically for an old South (it was, after all, the present day for him), or trivializing the hardships of slavery, Foster sought to humanize the characters in his songs, to have them care for one another, and to convey a sense that all people–regardless of their ethnic identities or social and economic class–share the same longings and needs for family and home. He instructed white performers of his songs not to mock slaves but to get their audiences to feel compassion for them. In his own words, he sought to “build up taste…among refined people by making words suitable to their taste, instead of the trashy and really offensive words which belong to some songs of that order.” Stephen Foster was a man with a mission, to reform black-face minstrelsy, then the most pervasive and powerful force in American popular culture. Are you offended that White Americans are demeaning\* themselves\* by not acting white enough? Well, [those low-class Southerners](http://www.birthplaceofcountrymusic.org/node/49) have been doing that for many years. > [@](#): > > The African-American music of the rural South provided the source for gospel, jazz, and blues, while the oft ignored black contribution to country and hillbilly music went far beyond providing the banjo and Charley Pride. Southern rural musicians drew upon a common well, segregated into blues, country, and folk by recording companies and folklorists only well into the 20th century. Until the explosive emergence of the blues a century ago, blacks played fiddle and banjo for dances throughout the South, entertaining audiences of both races and often playing with European-American musicians. Oh, my. I seem to have written an essay! You just got on my last nerve. I’ve been listening to a lot of Doug Sahm lately. The Official Musician of Texas was a San Antonio native from German & Irish stock. A child prodigy, he began playing pedal steel; his mom turned down an invitation to join The Grand Ole Opry because she wanted him to finish junior high. As a young guy, he learned serious rhythm & blues and, of course, had a bit of 60’s pop stardom as Sir Douglas with his Quintet. In his long career, he also played very fine Cajun fiddle tunes & Louisiana Swamp Pop. And had a big success with the Tex-Mex Supergroup, The Texas Tornadoes. With his old pal, Freddy Fender–born Baldemar Huerta. Any relation? Welcome to America! ETA: The alarm just went off to our local Pacifica station’s Cajun/Zydeco show. Except they played a Czech polka. And now it’s Sir Douglas & “Rain, Rain.” Must call in & complain about Insufficient Respect for Borders. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/18 "2009-05-30T10:04:54Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Are you offended that White Americans are demeaning\* themselves\* by not acting white enough? I’ve been at great pains to deny any offense whatever, at anything. You’re weird. And yes, I’m readily familiar with the work of Sr. Fender who, though no relation, I kind of dig. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/19 "2009-05-30T12:41:57Z")
Cultural appropriation is an interesting subject. I don’t think anyone out there is saying “don’t explore the products of another culture”, but there are some interesting power dynamics involved in the grand scheme of things. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082/20 "2009-05-30T13:40:16Z")
When I see suburban white boys throwing gang signs and talking about “smackin tha bitchez and slappin tha hos,” I think I’m witnessing cachet-grubbing. I don’t complain that they aren’t “acting white enough,” I complain that while their idols got their street cred from doing hard time or being in gangs, these bozos got theirs from watching rap videos. It’s a “profit without merit or risk” issue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-boy-soul-why-not-viewed-as-minstrel-show/498082.md?page=2)