First, he tries to compare the (alleged, according to an advocacy group) rate per household of white-collar crimes to the rate per 1,000 population of rape and murder. Apples and oranges. There are not 1,000 people per household. Can you maybe find a link that compares like to like
That’s the closet i could come to a true analysis for the pervasiveness of White-collar crime. Are you the only one who doesn’t catch the point. If 30% of households per year are affected by white-collar crime, than it’s obvious that it’s much likelier that you’ll be victimized by a white-collar criminal that a blue collar one.
I haven’t looked at all your nuimber yet, but as for number 1. The same also applies to white collar criminals.
I’ll addreess the other three in a few minutes when I go back and look at the numbers.
He was not given 16 years for stealing a candy bar. He was given 16 years because he had demonstrated time and again that he could not live in society without breaking the law. He got what he deserved.
Marc
You can’t just add up an amount of money and say that it is worth X years in jail. $10,000 stolen = 1 year, $1 million = 100 years?
Obviously there is more to it, and several other criteria for jail terms were mentioned above. I would add to the list the affect on the victim’s life. If $10 million is stolen from a huge corporation, there is not a huge affect on the victim’s life. If you kill someone on the other hand…
In any case, I think some of IzzyR’s earlier posts were much more helpful in analyzing why there may be a disparity between white-collar and blue-collar crimes, rather than the “it’s the establishment screwing us again!” line of reasoning.
Also, in light of pldennison’s last post, I’m not fully convinced there is much of a disparity.
And whatever happened to reasoned debate? You fucker, why don’t you get it! You’re misrepresenting what I said you lousy rat bastard! Hehe
No, but as it happens, I don’t steal stuff. Funny.
I didn’t say the punishment for your corporate fleecers was fair. I said the sentence for your ten-time offender wasn’t unfair.
Um, no. First of all, the article makes no reference to the value of the previous thefts, except for the Oreos, so I’m curious as to how you know. Second, quoting from the Texas Penal Code, Chapter 31, a theft is:
–A Class B misdemeanor if the amount stolen is less than $50 and the defendant has previously been convicted of any grade of theft. Class B misdemeanors are punishable by a fine of up to $2,000, a jail term of up to 180 days, or both. After the first theft, this guy apparently racked up as many as 9 Class B misdemeanors. Maybe some Class As, as well, depending on what he stole.
Many states carry sentencing guidelines that bump up repeated misdemeanor convictions to a felony crime. I couldn’t find out if Texas is one of those.
I should note, however, that in Texas, one of your “white collar crimes,” credit card fraud, is a state jail felony, punishable by 6 months to two years in jail and a $10,000 fine, or both. This is a harsher penalty than any of the misdemeanor theft classifications. So it seems that in Texas, the state you use for your own example, the penalty for that particular white-collar crime is more harsh than its blue-collar equivalent. And the fraudulent filing of a financial statement, for heaven’s sake, is a third or second degree felony, depending on whether it is a first offense.
So lets look at the cost two others property in relation to the sentence. How misdemeanors are classified form the Texas Criminal Justice System
(1) a Class C misdemeanor if:
(A) the amount of pecuniary loss is less than $50; or
(B) except as provided in Subdivision (3)(B), it causes substantial inconvenience to others;
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the amount of pecuniary loss is $50 or more but less than $500;
(3) a Class A misdemeanor if the amount of pecuniary loss is:
(A) $500 or more but less than $1,500; or
B) less than $1,500 and the actor causes in whole or in part impairment or interruption of public communications, public transportation, public water, gas, or power supply, or other public service, or causes to be diverted in whole, in part, or in any manner, including installation or removal of any device for any such purpose, any public communications, public water, gas, or power supply;
Ok, lets multiply that out, at the at the maximum just for the sake of argument. $500 x 9 = $13,500 + $0.75 = $13, 500.75 = 16yr sentence. Oh now I see it.
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How much do ten-time white-collar offenders get punished?
That’s not the point. Millions of dollars in damage, you get probation. That’s really fair.
Then:
No, my problem is that, as I suspected, there was more to stuffinb’s original post than meets the eye; namely, that the candy-bar thief in question was a habitual offender with a lengthy criminal history. A jury heard the evidence and felt that 16 years was the proper punishment for someone who has repeatedly shown that he cannot play well with others.
Wrong the judge decided 16 years was an appropriate sentence, go back and read the story again
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Yes, by the way, I read your links. However, you seem to be arguing that the punishment for a crime should be based, at least in part, on its likelihood of occurring.
------------------------------------------------------------No, I’m arguing that the punishment should fit the level of damage you’ve done.
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(Why else would you be arguing, in your OP, based on the rate per 1,000 of murders and rapes?) I can’t disagree more. The punishment for a crime should be based on how much we want to deter potential perpetrators, how much damage is caused to the victim(s) of that particular crime, and how likely the perpetrator is to repeat that crime.
Oh I get it now a probation sentence is sure going to deter the next guy who decides to fleece his company.
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Violent criminals are notoriously recidivist; Michael Milken, OTOH, is highly unlikely to repeat his crimes
A blanket statement, where’s you proof of that. I know it’s well established by rapist, but what about robbery murder and the others?
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Now, in one paragraph, you refer to “corporate executives who’d been sentenced to probation for fleecing their company out of millions of dollars.” (BTW, was this embezzlement, or securities fraud, or something else? These are very different crimes with very different sentences.)
They set up a bogus company and invoice their company.
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You then state: “White-collar crimes range from credit card fraud to embezzlement.” Whoa–back up!! Just what kind of people are comitting credit card fraud? Corporate executives? Highly doubtful. More likely, in my experience, that it’s the middle class and the same people who commit petty thefts.
Hey I didn’t make the categories; I just pointed it out so that we could establish a definition for white-collar crimes.
First, he tries to compare the (alleged, according to an advocacy group) rate per household of white-collar crimes to the rate per 1,000 population of rape and murder. Apples and oranges. There are not 1,000 people per household. Can you maybe find a link that compares like to like
That’s the closet i could come to a true analysis for the pervasiveness of White-collar crime. Are you the only one who doesn’t catch the point. If 30% of households per year are affected by white-collar crime, than it’s obvious that it’s much likelier that you’ll be victimized by a white-collar criminal that a blue collar one.
I haven’t looked at all your nuimber yet, but as for number 1. The same also applies to white collar criminals.
I’ll addreess the other three in a few minutes when I go back and look at the numbers.