# White folks and alcholism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620 "2018-07-09T23:25:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/81 "2018-07-10T21:18:25Z")
Distillation itself may have an extremely long history. But distilled spirits as a curiosity isn’t the same thing as a dirt cheap mass market product. Alcoholic beverages go back to the neolithic, because all you need is to set some sugary liquid aside for a while, and you’ll get fermentation. So people have been drinking wine, beer, pulque, koumiss, mead, and cider and other shit for thousands of years. Even in Europe. But mass production of cheap distilled spirits wasn’t a thing until the 1600s. There’s some evidence that different ethnic groups have different average reactions to alcohol. It’s probably likely that the “blue-eyed” link, if it exists, isn’t a direct causal relationship between genes that code for light eyes and genes that code for alcohol metabolism. It’s more likely to just be an accidental correlation. And by ethnic groups I’m more thinking of allele maps that vary clinally, rather than “white guy”, “black guy” and “asian guy”. Map frequency of blue eyes across the planet and get an allele map, then frequency of various enzyme types and get another allele map, and then compare map A to map B. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/82 "2018-07-10T21:23:19Z")
> [@gtyj](#): > > I think he is making up that “most Asians are, as well”. That makes no sense. Ever been drinking with people from Japan? Some of them can really drink you under the table, if you’re not careful. It’s not really an allergy. But many Asian people do metabolize alcohol differently than non-Asians do. It’s a genetic thing like lactose intolerance. [Alcohol flush reaction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/83 "2018-07-10T21:46:26Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > Nah, bruh. I was expecting someone with a science background to talk about GABA receptors, to talk about the pigments in the eye, to talk about how these could be related, to talk about how, if anything, can alcohol interact with any of these things. I had hoped that someone could read the article (I do not have access) and fight my ignorance. The only person who kind of scratched the surface was **DSeid**. I agree with the poster that this is preliminary work. You (and others) are free to rebut all you like. I’ll read your views, consider them, but unless you’re going to give me some science, I’m not gonna respond. Thanks. What did the Honorable Elijah Muhammad have to say on the matter? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/84 "2018-07-10T21:52:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > 1. Prohibition actually succeeded in markedly cutting down on drinking (and “alcholism”) in America. > > 2. Its biggest failure was not being able to withstand the demand for municipal revenue from booze taxes, once the Depression hit. Otherwise it probably would’ve lasted considerably longer, despite the sizable and noisy minority who hated it, and the boost it gave to organized crime. 1. At first. Later on less so and by the time it was repealed there was no big immediate jump, though consumption was still below pre-prohibition levels and took another 10 yrs or so of being legal again to reach pre-pro’b levels. According to these guys: [http://www.nber.org/papers/w3675](http://www.nber.org/papers/w3675) 2. That I find more doubtful. The conventional wisdom that prohibition’s big problem was in fostering organized crime and corruption has some obvious validity. What you mention might be another piece of the puzzle for the specific politics of repeal, I’d grant. It’s somewhat like drugs now. A lot people insist on arguing about that simplistically, claiming for example that drugs being illegal (those which are) ‘doesn’t stop anyone, I can buy you that drug in your town _right now_’ etc. But this is clearly ridiculous. Of course keeping drugs illegal reduces drug use based on some balance of risks (of getting arrested, getting fired, from dealing with drug dealers, etc) v the satisfaction drugs give. And a lot of people follow the herd, lots of virtuous and vicious circles of social behavior. It’s a question how much does illegality reduce drug use and how much good that does compared to the side effects of enforcement (again organized crime and corruption, locking loads of people up\*, undermining respect for law if particular laws become obviously unenforceable, etc). IOW saying it’s ‘like’ drugs doesn’t mean making alcohol or particular drugs illegal are obviously a good or bad idea without close study of the empirical specifics. \*who contrary to stereotype usually broke laws other than drug laws, even where people are nominally incarcerated just for a drug offences those might have been the only thing where the authorities had then dead to rights, not the only crime they committed as part of the illegal drug world. But arguably getting into the illegal drug world to begin with is what led them to those other crimes. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/85 "2018-07-11T00:51:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not really an allergy. But many Asian people do metabolize alcohol differently than non-Asians do. It’s a genetic thing like lactose intolerance. > > [Alcohol flush reaction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction) OK, thanks for the link. Flushing red isn’t the same as what I think of as an allergy. I often flush a little when I drink wine (but not with beer). And I’ve drank with a lot of people from Japan. I’ve never seen any of them have this flushing. Maybe the folks that do flush avoid drinking with me when I’m over in Asia. I’m not kidding when I say that Japanese guys can drink an awful lot of alcohol and they don’t seem to be affected as much as Americans. Not sure why. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/86 "2018-07-11T01:16:47Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > Could this be why prohibition failed so violently? No. Not a chance. Prohibiting murder has, in general, been a success. Prohibiting alcohol was a complete failure, worse than just a failure in fact. This is because murder is unequivocally bad and every sane person disapproves of murder, while alcohol is both good and bad at the same time and its good qualities are very important to a lot of people. Prohibition failed because it’s stupid to ban a good thing, even a good thing with significant bad attributes. It’s a matter of balance. The bad of alcohol does not outweigh the good, despite the pronouncements of prohibitionists. The bad of murder does outweigh the good. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/87 "2018-07-11T02:41:00Z")
Here’s the abstract of the paper the OP cited. > [@](#): > > Am J Med Genet B Neuropsychiatr Genet. 2015 Jul;168B(5):347-53. doi: 10.1002/ajmg.b.32316. Epub 2015 Apr 29. > Eye color: A potential indicator of alcohol dependence risk in European Americans. > Sulovari A1,2, Kranzler HR3, Farrer LA4, Gelernter J5,6,7, Li D1,8,9. > Author information > Abstract > > In archival samples of European-ancestry subjects, light-eyed individuals have been found to consume more alcohol than dark-eyed individuals. No published population-based studies have directly tested the association between alcohol dependence (AD) and eye color. We hypothesized that light-eyed individuals have a higher prevalence of AD than dark-eyed individuals. A mixture model was used to select a homogeneous sample of 1,263 European-Americans and control for population stratification. After quality control, we conducted an association study using logistic regression, adjusting for confounders (age, sex, and genetic ancestry). We found evidence of association between AD and blue eye color (P = 0.0005 and odds ratio = 1.83 (1.31-2.57)), supporting light eye color as a risk factor relative to brown eye color. Network-based analyses revealed a statistically significant (P = 0.02) number of genetic interactions between eye color genes and AD-associated genes. We found evidence of linkage disequilibrium between an AD-associated GABA receptor gene cluster, GABRB3/GABRG3, and eye color genes, OCA2/HERC2, as well as between AD-associated GRM5 and pigmentation-associated TYR. Our population-phenotype, network, and linkage disequilibrium analyses support association between blue eye color and AD. Although we controlled for stratification we cannot exclude underlying occult stratification as a contributor to this observation. Although replication is needed, our findings suggest that eye pigmentation information may be useful in research on AD. Further characterization of this association may unravel new AD etiological factors. Parsing the abstract is easy. It’s one preliminary paper on one set of research. That makes good headline bait, but those findings should never be taken seriously until replication and expansion is done. If you want a rare example of a true generalization, here it is: never base an argument or change your behavior because of one study. Answering the question “Could this be why prohibition failed so violently?” is even easier. That’s a flat no. We’ve had many good threads on Prohibition, especially after the Ken Burns documentary. His major sources are easy to find. Burns depended heavily on Daniel Okrant’s [Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition](https://www.amazon.com/Last-Call-Rise-Fall-Prohibition/dp/074327704X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531275178&sr=8-1&keywords=daniel+okrent) and Okrant depended heavily on Michael A. Lerner’s [Dry Manhattan: Prohibition in New York City](https://www.amazon.com/Dry-Manhattan-Prohibition-York-City/dp/0674030575/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1531275273&sr=1-1&keywords=prohibition+in+new+york). Both books are very good, though Lerner’s is more academic. Anyway, the main sources of alcohol before 1920 that pushed the campaign against drinking were wine and beer. That was a change from the very early years, in which rum and whisky were more profitable because they concentrated the alcohol. But after the Civil War large numbers of breweries and wineries opened. Ironically, it was Prohibition that brought back distilled liquor because it again was cheaper to transport. Even so, wine and beer remained the main alcohol sources because they remained cheaper. No connection can be made between Prohibition’s failure and the study’s alcohol dependence (AD). As noted above, alcoholism declined during Prohibition. It failed because it got passed only through some odd political alliances (mostly religion-based and heavily anti-immigrant) pushed through an extremely narrow victory. (And the revenue from alcohol excise taxes was no longer required to run the government after the income tax was constitutional.) Those alliances quickly fell apart, enforcement never was or could be properly financed, and wets were always in the majority. The rise of criminal syndicates - not just Italian, but of a variety of nationalities - made Prohibition-related crimes a national cause célèbre. Prohibition had as much chance of surviving long-term as the South had in winning the Civil War. The other side was initially surprised and overwhelmed but had all the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/88 "2018-07-11T10:29:05Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Man, I need a drink! In Civ III: Call to Power, that was one of the quotes from the Slaver unit. Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/89 "2018-07-11T10:29:11Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > Then you’ll be “trying to understand” until the end of time. If you don’t get it now, you wouldn’t get it if I explained it to you. I’m not going to bother explaining it to you. Thanks. So you throw out a gratuitous bit of nonsense and then want to back away from it by not “bothering” to respond? Very poor debating technique. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/90 "2018-07-11T10:52:51Z")
> [@gtyj](#): > > I’m not kidding when I say that Japanese guys can drink an awful lot of alcohol and they don’t seem to be affected as much as Americans. Not sure why. Practice. Alcohol dehydrogenase is produced in the liver in greater amounts when the liver is exposed to alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![drivekiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@drivekiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drivekiller)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/91 "2018-07-12T07:35:42Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > Then you’ll be “trying to understand” until the end of time. If you don’t get it now, you wouldn’t get it if I explained it to you. I’m not going to bother explaining it to you. Thanks. On the other hand, Fats Waller was a bootlegger and his alcoholism probably killed him. But unlike Al Capone, he had a talent. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/92 "2018-07-12T12:46:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Not that many people have blue eyes. I bet there’s more black americans than blue eyed americans. That wasn’t true as of ten years ago (17% blue eyed vs 13% African American), I doubt it’s changed that much in the last decade. It’s true that white Americans drink more than Black Americans and that European countries drink more than other continents. I’m not sure what the causes of that might be. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/93 "2018-07-12T13:07:37Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > If you find them I’d be curious. But the above cite does not back you up. I’ve seen no cites yet that claim _true distillation_ of alcoholic beverages had been firmly established prior to the 12th century in China. Here’s the wiki on [alcohol in China](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_drinks_in_China#History) ( actually on double-checking the exact same cite is used in your wider wiki article ): > > _Distillation may have been practiced in China as early as the later Han but the earliest evidence so far discovered has been dated to the Jin and Southern Song._ > > We’re talking here about the widespread distribution and consumption of distilled _alcoholic beverages_. Not when distillation as a technique was first discovered. [http://montgomerydistillery.com/our-process/distilling/](http://montgomerydistillery.com/our-process/distilling/) [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1907.tb02205.x](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1907.tb02205.x) > [@](#): > > Evidence of distillation comes from alchemists working in Alexandria, Roman Egypt, in the 1st century AD.[17] Distilled water has been known since at least c. 200 AD, when Alexander of Aphrodisias described the process > > … > > Distillation was known in the ancient Indian subcontinent, evident from baked clay retorts and receivers found at Taxila and Charsadda in modern Pakistan, dating back to the early centuries of the Common Era. These “Gandhara stills” were only capable of producing very weak liquor, as there was no efficient means of collecting the vapors at low heat > **[History of alcoholic drinks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_alcoholic_drinks)** > > Purposeful production of alcoholic drinks is common and often reflects cultural and religious peculiarities as much as geographical and sociological conditions. > Discovery of late Stone Age jugs suggest that intentionally fermented beverages existed at least as early as the Neolithic period (c. 10,000 BC). > [@](#): > > Because the two ingredients necessary to alcoholic fermentation are widely spread and always appear together, civilizations in almost every part of the world developed some form of alcoholic beverage very early in their history. The Chinese were distilling a beverage from rice beer by 800 bce, and arrack was distilled in the East Indies from sugarcane and rice. The Arabs developed a distillation method that was used to produce a distilled beverage from wine. Greek philosophers reported a crude distillation method. The Romans apparently produced distilled beverages, although no references concerning them are found in writings before 100 ce. Production of distilled spirits was reported in Britain before the Roman conquest. Spain, France, and the rest of western Europe probably produced distilled spirits at an earlier date, but production was apparently limited until the 8th century, after contact with the Arabs. > **[Distilled spirit | Definition, History, Production, Types, & Facts](https://www.britannica.com/topic/distilled-spirit)** > > A distilled spirit is an alcoholic beverage (such as brandy, whiskey, rum, or arrack) that is obtained by distillation from wine of other fermented fruit or plant juice or from a starchy material (such as various grains) that has first been brewed.... Knowledge of distillation strongly suggests its use in making distilled alcoholic beverages – certainly that’s the chief use today (despite all the other uses it has), and it’s perverse to think it was diferent in earlier history, restricted to only a fe curtious academics. ---
**Author:** ![Anubis8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@Anubis8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anubis8)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/94 "2018-07-12T15:11:46Z")
Wine is fermented, not distilled. Distillation only became common in the Middle Ages. For what it’s worth, people of all shapes, sizes, colors, and locations have been consuming the hardest stuff they could concoct for as long as they’ve been able. And, obvious alert, more alcohol= more terrible behaviour ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/95 "2018-07-13T20:57:19Z")
There are a great number of Americans with blue eyes, but most of them are kittens. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/96 "2018-07-13T21:41:01Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That wasn’t true as of ten years ago (17% blue eyed vs 13% African American), I doubt it’s changed that much in the last decade. > > It’s true that white Americans drink more than Black Americans and that European countries drink more than other continents. I’m not sure what the causes of that might be. If you count Russia as in Europe but cultural acceptance, latitude and disposable income do have some correlations, but I am not aware of any great emperical mapping to cause. I would bet cultural and religious taboos alcohol consumption are some of the highest factors. One of the Pāli precepts is “I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.” In the Quran, intoxicants are sometimes described as being temptations of satanic origin. The Bible does have sections where due to drinking your son may see you nude or your daughters may rape you but in general it is more socially acceptable. As the African American culture typically condones heavy alcohol use more often than those cultures of European origin I would personally place my bets on cultural acceptance. Which also fits this map. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/97 "2018-07-15T05:30:30Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If you count Russia as in Europe but cultural acceptance, latitude and disposable income do have some correlations, but I am not aware of any great emperical mapping to cause. > > I would bet cultural and religious taboos alcohol consumption are some of the highest factors. > > One of the Pāli precepts is “I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.” > In the Quran, intoxicants are sometimes described as being temptations of satanic origin. > > The Bible does have sections where due to drinking your son may see you nude or your daughters may rape you but in general it is more socially acceptable. > > As the African American culture typically condones heavy alcohol use more often than those cultures of European origin I would personally place my bets on cultural acceptance. > > Which also fits this map. > > [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol\_consumption\_per\_capita\_world\_map.PNG](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG) Do you mean “condemn” instead of “condone?” African Americans don’t engage much in heavy alcohol use at all, nor do people in most of Africa. Alcohol consumption is highest in Northern Europe and in the US it’s highest among white Americans. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/98 "2018-07-15T05:37:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Do you mean “condemn” instead of “condone?” > > African Americans don’t engage much in heavy alcohol use at all, nor do people in most of Africa. Alcohol consumption is highest in Northern Europe and in the US it’s highest among white Americans. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/99 "2018-07-15T06:08:30Z")
> [@backsidejohnny](#): > > So you’re straight. What does that have to do with your OP, **Roderick Femm’s** post or anything else? Heh, I didn’t take it that way, still don’t. I just thought all that nasty logic stuff made him uncomfortable… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620/100 "2018-07-15T07:14:56Z")
Sorry **CalMeacham** , but I remain stubbornly unconvinced partly due to dueling cites, especially around the Chinese :). But even if you were to convince me full distillation in general was a common and widespread method to produce booze pre-Middle Ages, the OP specified grain distillations and one of your own cites says: _The earliest use of starchy grains to produce distilled spirits is not known, but their use certainly dates from the Middle Ages._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-folks-and-alcholism/817620.md?page=6)