# White House announces Russian sanctions. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 29, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863 "2016-12-29T20:31:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/121 "2016-12-31T01:29:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There is a middle ground between accepting everything the CIA says as gospel truth and not believing anything they say. I recommend it. It’s called “believing the things i agree with” and I’m sure you do. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/122 "2016-12-31T01:35:12Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > So we’re not to believe anything the CIA says or does because “remember the WMDs!” Well, why even have a CIA? Just close it down then? No, we’re not to believe anything the CIA says that the current administration clearly wants them to say and that is not backed by any actual evidence but instead by ‘oh, we have super secret sources, but we can’t tell you what they are’. If there’s real support for the claim, then show some evidence beyond ‘trust us, we’re from the government’. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/123 "2016-12-31T02:08:31Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > No, we’re not to believe anything the CIA says that the current administration clearly wants them to say and that is not backed by any actual evidence but instead by ‘oh, we have super secret sources, but we can’t tell you what they are’. If there’s real support for the claim, then show some evidence beyond ‘trust us, we’re from the government’. You do realize the CIA actually briefs senior officials, right? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/124 "2016-12-31T03:02:36Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > No, we’re not to believe anything the CIA says that the current administration clearly wants them to say and that is not backed by any actual evidence but instead by ‘oh, we have super secret sources, but we can’t tell you what they are’. If there’s real support for the claim, then show some evidence beyond ‘trust us, we’re from the government’. Perhaps if the CIA said, “Pitor Vorisky told us that the Russians hacked American computer networks” Pitor would have an umbrella accident involving nuclear material. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/125 "2016-12-31T03:08:56Z")
Need a plausible explanation why Putin is playing bunny-rabbit? Big, fuzzy, friendly bunny rabbit? How about because he needs the money? Because he is expecting that the Prime Minister of Exxon will broker a triple alliance between the US, Russian and Exon for all that sweet Arctic crude. Because Russia is a shabby sort of super-power, and they need the money. This is America, the answer is usually “money”. And those poor Russian bastards got rulers who are lurching from the worst form of socialism to the worst form of capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/126 "2016-12-31T03:26:20Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > It’s amazing how people who have demonized the CIA for decades all of a sudden are willing to fully trust what CIA tells them without any evidence to support it whatsoever. It’s not just CIA - 10 or 15+ agencies. Deny all you want, though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/127 "2016-12-31T03:46:49Z")
Maybe the Russians just aren’t very good at it? They get caught, but aren’t smart enough to learn what it is that got them caught, and keep doing it. Putin can decide to hire hackers from the underground, especially if they are the kind of people who like to breathe. But how can he know what he’s getting? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/128 "2016-12-31T04:22:45Z")
So, when CrowdStrike, the private security firm called in by the DNC, also says it was Russia, why is that not independent corroboration? I’m no expert, but they seem to be a reputable company. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/129 "2016-12-31T04:30:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’d say that, try as I might to play devil’s advocate – yeah, it does. > > The case for it is, Obama is trying to send a message, and if Putin acts like he cares, then Obama could look strong – and, since Putin doesn’t seem to care, Obama _could_ say “Yeah, well, I don’t _care_ if you care, because, uh, what I care about here is doing damage to Russian interests – because that’s a subset of the other thing I care about, which is furthering American interests.” > > And, see, that fails – utterly – if what he’s doing is set to be reversed in two or three weeks by Obama’s successor. If it’s temporary to the point of being ephemeral. > > I’m genuinely trying to see how it could look strong, and the best I can do is think of how it’d be if things were different: if Trump had said he’d give a lot of thought to Obama’s decision and may let it stand; or if he’d simply kept quiet, and we could maybe infer it. But, no: try as I might, I truly can’t see Putin’s response as anything but a dismissive response following an accurate read of the situation. I’m not trying to be obstreperous, but I can’t follow this logic at all. And I’m totally lost on your last paragraph: are you thinking that Trump may invite the PNGed Russian diplomats back in the country? I still maintain that if the roles were reversed, with Putin expelling US diplomats and Obama doing nothing, there’s be endless criticism that Obama did nothing (as opposed to looking “strong” and “being above caring” about it). I think the Fox News types would see it as an admission of guilt by Obama that the US did something wrong. For some reason, more and more Americans judge Putin and Obama by totally different standards, with Putin getting the benefit of the doubt. I note that Republicans give Putin twice as high an approval rating as they do Obama. That’s patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/130 "2016-12-31T04:34:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …I note that Republicans give Putin twice as high an approval rating as they do Obama. That’s patriotism. OK, now that’s a bit much! I like a good joke as much as the next curmudgeon, but…Oh, God, its _true_, isn’t it? Please don’t cite. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/131 "2016-12-31T05:11:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I still maintain that if the roles were reversed, with Putin expelling US diplomats and Obama doing nothing, there’s be endless criticism that Obama did nothing (as opposed to looking “strong” and “being above caring” about it). I think the Fox News types would see it as an admission of guilt by Obama that the US did something wrong. For some reason, more and more Americans judge Putin and Obama by totally different standards, with Putin getting the benefit of the doubt. I think what it is is that none of the stuff Obama did matters, because Trump is just going to reverse all of it in a few weeks anyway, when he takes power. So why should Putin respond? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/132 "2016-12-31T05:23:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not trying to be obstreperous, but I can’t follow this logic at all. And I’m totally lost on your last paragraph: are you thinking that Trump may invite the PNGed Russian diplomats back in the country? You’re not lost; I think he may send invitations to Russian diplomats post-haste. Given that you weren’t lost, can you likewise follow the rest? _“If it’s temporary to the point of being ephemeral”_ meant “if what he’s doing is set to be reversed in two or three weeks by Obama’s successor.” I hinted at that by prefacing it with an _“if what he’s doing is set to be reversed in two or three weeks by Obama’s successor.”_ As I’d said, if Trump defers to Obama on this, Obama could look strong; if he _doesn’t,_ if the lame duck’s temporary and reversible action vanishes like ice cream in the sun, then Putin looks like he disregarded something barely worth mentioning. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/133 "2016-12-31T07:18:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > … > > As I’d said, if Trump defers to Obama on this, Obama could look strong; if he _doesn’t,_ if the lame duck’s temporary and reversible action vanishes like ice cream in the sun, then Putin looks like he disregarded something barely worth mentioning. Because Putin has confidence that Trump is his creature. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/134 "2016-12-31T07:27:29Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Russia doesn’t want to rule the world; however, it does want to feel secure in its ability to defend its political and economic interests. America’s behavior, with its meddling in the elections and political affairs of numerous other countries, its invasions or “interventions” in various parts of the world, and putting heavy military machinery on Russia’s doorstep has done little to allay Russia’s post-Cold War concerns that the US wants to dominate Russia the way it has attempted to dominate its other adversaries. > > The United States foreign policy playbook has become pretty predictable – America encircles Russia and attempts to take control of Arab oil and Afghanistan pipelines while trying to break Iran and cut them out of the oil game altogether until they completely lay prostrate before the US. This situation will escalate and become dire until there is meaningful dialogue and discussion about what Russia really wants, which is not global empire, as you say, but absolute protection of its political and other interests. Of course the U.S., and the West in general, wants to dominate Russia. If it doesn’t, Russia will dominate Europe and anyone else it can. “Rule the world” was hyperbolic, but there’s no doubting Putin’s expansionist designs in case you’ve forgotten Crimea. Who’s going to be next if no one stops him? I doubt that countries bordering Russia share your sympathy for the poor, maligned bear. In other words, Obama and his predecessors haven’t squeezed Russia just to be a bully but to protect European allies against a proven and historical aggressor. They learned from history in the hope that it wouldn’t be repeated. That has always been a self-evident no-brainer in the West. Until now. All of a sudden, this place is crawling with Russian apologists just because a president-elect with no clue of history or international relations is cozying up to its heartless, egomaniacal autocrat, likely so he and his friends can do a windfall of business with him and damn the consequences for anyone else. What’s next on the apologists’ checklist? Killing political opponents isn’t so bad? ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/135 "2016-12-31T07:44:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > _“If it’s temporary to the point of being ephemeral”_ meant “if what he’s doing is set to be reversed in two or three weeks by Obama’s successor.” I hinted at that by prefacing it with an _“if what he’s doing is set to be reversed in two or three weeks by Obama’s successor.”_ The parts of this that are non-reversible are such: first and foremost, the US has declared to Russia we know who your goddamn spies are and what they’re up to and where they live and et cetera and we suffered their existence only because they never rose to the level of being a nuisance. The next crop of “cultural attaches” can expect the same thing. Trump might make nice with Russia in general but counter-intelligence does not bow to political whims. Just ask Jonathan Pollard. Also, certain Russian compounds were raided and seized. Did the Russians delete everything before the FBI gave them the hard takedown? Are they sure they deleted everything? And since the FBI knew about these compounds for who knows how long, what might they have compromised just by watching? Did a counter-intelligence operation ever slip in disguised as a cable repairman or plumber or the like? The politics might end up being as meaningful as a fart into the wind but on the intel side Russia got royally kicked in the nuts. Trump won’t be reversing that. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/136 "2016-12-31T08:07:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not trying to be obstreperous, but I can’t follow this logic at all. And I’m totally lost on your last paragraph: are you thinking that Trump may invite the PNGed Russian diplomats back in the country? Live by the executive order, die by the executive order. If the only reason the diplomats aren’t allowed into the country is because the President says no, why shouldn’t they be allowed into the country if the President stops saying no? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/137 "2016-12-31T09:20:40Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Because Putin has confidence that Trump is his creature. Pooty knows that Trump is too stupid to figure it out, and all it takes is one kind word and Trump will start eating out of his hand. We’re so lucky to have one of the dumbest bipeds alive headed to the White house. ETA The sanctions are working well… **Vermont electric company finds alleged Russian malware on computer** > **[US utility: Alleged Russian malware on laptop | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/us/grizzly-steppe-malware-burlington-electric/index.html)** > > A Vermont electric company says it found on a company laptop the same kind of malicious software that US authorities believe was used by Russian hackers in an attempt to influence the election. Wonder how Trump will spin this. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/138 "2016-12-31T11:53:03Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Of course the U.S., and the West in general, wants to dominate Russia. If it doesn’t, Russia will dominate Europe and anyone else it can. “Rule the world” was hyperbolic, but there’s no doubting Putin’s expansionist designs in case you’ve forgotten Crimea. Who’s going to be next if no one stops him? I doubt that countries bordering Russia share your sympathy for the poor, maligned bear. > > In other words, Obama and his predecessors haven’t squeezed Russia just to be a bully but to protect European allies against a proven and historical aggressor. They learned from history in the hope that it wouldn’t be repeated. That has always been a self-evident no-brainer in the West. Until now. All of a sudden, this place is crawling with Russian apologists just because a president-elect with no clue of history or international relations is cozying up to its heartless, egomaniacal autocrat, likely so he and his friends can do a windfall of business with him and damn the consequences for anyone else. What’s next on the apologists’ checklist? Killing political opponents isn’t so bad? I noticed how your response really waltzed right past the fundamental problem that we have in dealing with Russia, which is the unwillingness to view things from the perspective of an adversary. You can acknowledge that Russia’s behavior is illegal and unethical, and yet you can also understand why the behave in such brutish fashion. The fact is that the United States is really in no position to dictate to Russia whom it can invade and whom it can’t – we lost that ‘moral authority’ in 2002 (if not before then). The US has been in Afghanistan TWICE as long as Russia was in Afghanistan, and there’s no end in sight. The US completely invaded a sovereign state on specious grounds and deposed its leader. Half this government has openly discussed attacking Iran. That’s saying nothing of the fact that the US military machine essentially encircles Russia and has periodically threatened to put missiles on her border – the exact same conduct that led to the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. Clearly, sanctions and escalations aren’t working – they’re just provoking Putin and convincing him to dig in even deeper, with largely the full support of his government supporters and his people. Maybe a little perspective can go a long way? It’s probably more effective than half-assed parting shots or political consequences that Putin basically laughs at. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/139 "2016-12-31T14:51:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The sanctions are working well… > **Vermont electric company finds alleged Russian malware on computer** > [http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/us/grizzly-steppe-malware-burlington-electric/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/us/grizzly-steppe-malware-burlington-electric/index.html) > **[Russian hackers strike Burlington Electric with malware](https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/local/vermont/2016/12/30/russia-hacked-us-grid-through-burlington-electric/96024326/)** > > Malware linked with attempts to influence the U.S. presidential election has been found on Burlington Electric computer “Malware was found at the utility in a computer that was not connected to the operation of the grid, Vermont Public Service Commissioner Christopher Recchia said.” In fact, it was on a laptop. Probably one the user took home with him after work. Yet news articles breathlessly proclaimed, before being corrected, “Russian hackers penetrated US electricity grid through Vermont utility”, “U.S. officials allege Russian hackers accessed U.S. electrical grid”. More “Fake News”? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863/140 "2016-12-31T15:39:51Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > In fact, it was on a laptop. Probably one the user took home with him after work. When it is connected to the network at work it could infect other machines. It seems curious that it could be infected while not on the network. How did the bad guys know it was associated with Vermont power? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-announces-russian-sanctions/775863.md?page=8)