# White House Releases Bush's Guard Records **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601 "2004-02-11T04:28:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/1 "2004-02-11T04:28:43Z")
The White House today [released pay records](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4230576/) that show Bush completed his guard requirements. Including a full copy of the ‘torn sheet’ that elucidator has been going on about for some time. > [@](#): > > The documents, in the form of annual retirement ”point summaries” and poorly photocopied payroll records, indicate that Bush received credit for nine days of active duty between May 1972 and May 1973, the period that Democrats have cited as evidence that he failed to meet his military responsibilities. > > The White House promised clearer copies of the payroll records later Tuesday afternoon. > … > The White House also released previously distributed statements from Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr., personnel director for the Texas Air National Guard from 1969 to 1995, who reviewed Bush’s military records at the request of his campaign four years ago. > > Lloyd said the review showed that Bush had “satisfactory years” for the period of 1972-73 and 1973-74, “which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner.” > > Lloyd has said Bush’s early discharge was not uncommon for pilots or other crewmen who were to leave soon and had been trained on jets that had become obsolete, as was Bush’s case. Now, I’m sure this won’t satisfy the conspiracy mongers, but does this take the issue off the table for the Democrats? Kerry’s response today was that he has said all he wants to say on the issue, which would indicate to me that this whole thing is dead. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/2 "2004-02-11T04:41:34Z")
The NewsHour with Jim Leher did a [nice segment](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white_house/jan-june04/bush_2-10.html) on this today. There were two retired Generals in the interview, and the concensus seemed to be that Bush probably filled the letter of the law, but worked the system to get out of doing his duty in a fully honest way. Read the transcipt. One guy was a lot more favorable towards Bush than the other guy. There was also a reporter from the Globe there. This quote will get people chuckling: > [@](#): > > BRIG. GEN. DAVID McGINNIS (Ret.): They tell me about the… they tell me the Alabama period is a… is fairly, fairly void of duty and that his overall performance during that period is spasmodic. I think that’s the best way to put it. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/3 "2004-02-11T04:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > The documents, in the form of annual retirement ”point summaries” and poorly photocopied payroll records, indicate that Bush received credit for **nine days** of active duty between May 1972 and May 1973, the period that Democrats have cited as evidence that he failed to meet his military responsibilities. IIRC guard obligation is for one weekend a month and two weeks during the summer…am I correct? Let’s add it up. Follow me if you can… 12x2=24+14=38…follow me so far? So he should have been on duty 38 days during that year. But those records say he was there 9 days. He was there just a tiny bit more that 25% of the time he was obligated to be. Works for me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/4 "2004-02-11T04:44:09Z")
I don’t know. This sounds like BS too me. > [@](#): > > Lloyd has said Bush’s early discharge was not uncommon for pilots or other crewmen who were to leave soon and had been trained on jets that had become obsolete, as was Bush’s case. AFAIK, the AF and the ANG has never taken lightly to pilots leaving. Also I doubt that they would let a pilot go just because the plain he flew was obsolete. It was, after all, a time of war. Pilots are valuable and take time to train. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/5 "2004-02-11T04:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > AFAIK, the AF and the ANG has never taken lightly to pilots leaving. Also I doubt that they would let a pilot go just because the plain he flew was obsolete. It was, after all, a time of war. Pilots are valuable and take time to train. Agreed… but you have have to remember…this was Gee Duhbya leaving. They didn’t want to upset daddy so they most likely propped the door open for him. So it wouldn’t hit him in the ass ya know. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/6 "2004-02-11T04:56:32Z")
He only scored in the 25 percentile on the pilot aptitude test so he thought he only had to be there 25% of the time! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/7 "2004-02-11T05:02:14Z")
Actually, it was very common. The Vietnam war was winding down, and the military was beginning to stand down. Lots of pilots left the guard right around then. Bush wanted to go to grad school, so he applied for an early discharge and it was granted. Whoop de doo. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/8 "2004-02-11T05:11:36Z")
I think, IIRC, I mentioned the “torn document” issue in a couple of posts, **Sam**. If that qualifes as “going on about for some time”,well, ok, I guess. I think if you review my posts on the matter, I have stated for the record I think the issue is pretty small beer. The issue is small. So was the Watergate break in. But if there is an attempt to cover up an insignificant issue, it festers. Ask Bill Clinton if you don’t believe me. Is the matter entirely resolved? Niggling doubts remain. GeeDubya has made a big display of promising to release all the records, but what he apparently means is route the records through his office for perusal. Not exactly the same thing. For instance, this from Rueters: [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040208/us\_nm/campaign\_bush\_guard\_dc\_3](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040208/us_nm/campaign_bush_guard_dc_3) "Asked why no evidence has been found to show he reported to duty in Alabama during the summer and fall of 1972, Bush said: “There may be no evidence, but I did report. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have been honorably discharged.” [znip] "But attendance records of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron in Alabama do not show that Bush ever was there. “I never saw the man, I never met the man,” Kenneth Lott, the squadron’s personnel officer at the time, told Newsweek. " Apparently, neither did anyone else. How likely is that, do you think? Was GeeDubya so devoid of presence and personality that no one remembers him? “…McClellan was pressed yesterday on why no one who served with Bush in Alabama has come forward despite years of publicity on the subject. The spokesman conceded that the White House has not located anyone who served with Bush in Alabama. “Obviously, we would have made people available,” he said…” Yes. I rather imagine they would have. But not one. Odd, don’t you think? And this: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30494-2004Feb10.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30494-2004Feb10.html) “…In addition, according to the new documents, Bush was performing service or unit drills at a time when his commanding officers in Houston said they could not evaluate him because “he has not been observed” at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston – as they had written in previously released National Guard records. _That report was signed by two officers on May 2, 1973, a day that the new documents show Bush was supposed to have been performing service in Houston…_” (emphasis added) So, no, **Sam**. This issue is not entirely settled. That should not mean in any way that you should curtail your cheerleading for the Shining One, I couldn’t ask such a thing, fish gotta fly, birds gotta swim… Freak freely, my man. I’ve already said: your loyalty would be noble if it were not squandered on such an unworthy man. If GeeDubya were to say “Yeppers, the Old Man pulled some strings, I got to be a pilot, which is cool. I didn’t give a shit about 'Nam, didn’t give a shit about much of anything but partying. The Air National Guard was the easy way out, and I took it.” I would shrug and say OK. No biggy. So would Kerry, as he has stated. But he didn’t. The jury is out, so far my verdict is “not proven”. But if this issue bites him in the butt, I refuse to stifle the urge to chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/9 "2004-02-11T06:23:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Clellan was pressed yesterday on why no one who served with Bush in Alabama has come forward despite years of publicity on the subject. The spokesman conceded that the White House has not located anyone who served with Bush in Alabama. “Obviously, we would have made people available,” he said…" Have you read [Scott McClellan’s press briefing](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040210-3.html) on this? It’s a hoot and a half! Given the president’s burgeoning credibility problems, the press _really_ wants confirmation from Bush’s barracks buddies in Alabama. I can’t say I blame them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/10 "2004-02-11T06:37:07Z")
You know, a guy could sure earn himself some gratitude, if he happened to be in the 'Bama Guard at that time, and just didn’t remember until now that he certainly saw GeeDubya right there when he said he was there. At the very least he would be on TV. Get his 15 minutes of fame. Not like a bribe, or a gratuity, or anything like that. Just that Republicans would really really like him a whole bunch. Guys like bankers, CEO’s, those sort of folks. You think maybe that’s what McLellan was trolling for? Whaddaya wanna bet somebody in 'Bama suddenly remembers “Ooooooh! _That_ George W. Bush. Sure, he was there! Remember it like it was yesterday!” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/11 "2004-02-11T06:44:32Z")
I’m shocked that they haven’t yet produced a busty young former secretary for the governor of Texas who’s willing to step forward and say that she too was in the Alabama guard at the time. That sort of stuff used to be so _easy_ for the republicans. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/12 "2004-02-11T07:15:50Z")
I had no idea that the national guard was ever so casual about when and how personel could perform their duties. My mother supervises several employees that are in the guard, and she has to carefully schedule their time so they can have enough time to fulfill their guard orders. And of course half of them are currently either in Iraq or on the border, so she has to keep their positions ready for them when they come back home. Also, nearly everyone I know who is in the guard also has a full time career - or is in college. Did President Bush have a job? Employers have to be very careful about not hurting guardsmen’s chances at career advancement or cutting their hours, so they have to see orders in advance when planning workloads, hiring additional people, or scheduling. My gut feeling is that Bush was careful enough to avoid anything illegal (such as technically deserting), but he obviously had every possible privilege and advantage one could imagine in the guard. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/13 "2004-02-11T08:06:36Z")
Anyone got a link to the actual records that were released? Are they different from this version of the [un-torn document](http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003220.html), which recently surfaced? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/14 "2004-02-11T08:20:42Z")
From what I’ve caught on the news tonight, this issue is “settled” only for those who are eager to believe anything the Bush Administration says. A standard-for-everyone honorable discharge and a handful of pay stubs hardly adds up to any conclusive evidence of presence. A local news anchor mentioned earlier this evening that all pilots – military and civilian – maintain and cherish their flight log books, since those are an irreplacable record of every flight they took. Surely if Bush wanted to settle the matter of his ANG service, couldn’t he simply produce those books and let everyone see when he was flying for the National Guard for the period in question? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/15 "2004-02-11T08:38:15Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Anyone got a link to the actual records that were released? Are they different from this version of the [un-torn document](http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003220.html), which recently surfaced? Washington Post has a pdf file: [http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/graphics/bushNaGuard\_page5.pdf](http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/graphics/bushNaGuard_page5.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/16 "2004-02-11T09:19:20Z")
Thanks. * * * ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/17 "2004-02-11T09:22:00Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Thanks. > > * * * Demo Here is the original page with all the doc links (including text of the press conference): [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30494-2004Feb10.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30494-2004Feb10.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/18 "2004-02-11T14:29:06Z")
This is only a minor issue if viewed in isolation. President Bush’s campaign had no qualms about characterizing Clinton as a “draft dodger,” suggesting that said something unfavorable about Clinton’s character and ability to act as commander in chief. Bush seems to miss few opportunities to dress in military garb. Independent of the carrier stunt, I wonder how many flight jackets this guy owns by now. His administration has consistently portrayed him and his positions as patriotic and American - and any questioners as un-both. In this context, I believe it certainly is relevant to Bush’s character - both at the time he made the decision and in the present when he misrepresents that decision - that when push came to shove, he apparently had some strings pulled to obtain favorable placement in the guard, and when there, he apparently performed his duties in as lackadaisical fashion as possible - if at all. He gets bumped up on the list for the guard. Then he gets relocated to work on a political campaign. Then, if he even shows up, he apparently does so in such a stellar manner that he leaves little or no trace. Impressive! This man wants to be viewed as a decisive man of action. When this incident suggests he is not above going to extreme lengths to take the easy way out. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/19 "2004-02-11T16:26:34Z")
The significance may be even broader than that, if it symbolizes that the Beltway media is finally tired of being played for suckers and will start asking Bush the tough questions required of a President. [Robert Kuttner](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/02/11/the_honeymoon_is_over_mr_bush/) is persuasive on that point. **Sam** , in case you weren’t being \*willfully \* unaware, the AWOL issue is mainly (though not exclusively) about Bush’s time in _Alabama_. Producing \*Texas \* records hardly makes the whole matter “dead”, although its overall significance is still open to discussion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601/20 "2004-02-11T17:41:19Z")
According to today’s paper, [this issue is not dead yet.](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/7926412.htm) Bush definitely has some 'splainin to do this issue, but my guess is that the W.H. will take a page from Clinton’s playbook and deny, deny, deny hoping the issue will fade. I suspect it will not be a major issue in the election, but it may temper exactly how Rove, et al attack Kerry. They will probably not bring up the “medal throwing incident”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-house-releases-bushs-guard-records/228601.md?page=2)