# White identity or democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515 "2015-08-31T17:17:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/1 "2015-08-31T17:17:30Z")
> **[VDARE.com](https://vdare.com/)** > > We inform the fight to keep America American Here they try to make the argument that Trump is speaking to the people, and if it is white identity, then so be it…the problem is they have bad policies based on bad info. As I make the case in this response. > [@](#): > > Perhaps we know you are bullshiting us: [Donald Trump: Same Anti-Immigration Ideas, New Salesman](http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/17/donald-trump-on-immigration-same-anti-immigration-ideas-new-salesman/) > [NileValleyPeoples: How Obama plays upon white guilt - Hilary and the liberals are exploiting it as well - conservatives like Shelby Steele confirm it](http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2015/08/how-obama-plays-upon-white-guilt-hilary.html) > [NileValleyPeoples: Lightweight enforcement of EEO laws shows alleged "flood of minorities taking white jobs" is bogus propaganda Nilevalleypeoples](http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2013/06/blog-post.html) > [NileValleyPeoples: 7 reasons certain libertarians and right-wingers are wrong on the Civil Rights Act nilevalleypeoples](http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2012/05/7-reasons-libertarians-may-be-wrong.html) > [NileValleyPeoples: The affirmative action propaganda machine- Part 1 nilevalleypeoples](http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-affirmatve-action-propaganda.html) > "Until the nation-breaking 1965 Immigration Act, of course, “whites” would have been called “Americans.” actually we stole it from the Indians. > Be careful what you say about Sweden: > [White Genocide, Eurabia and Other White Supremacist Nonsense - Debunking Denialism](http://debunkingdenialism.com/2014/01/11/white-genocide-eurabia-and-other-white-supremacist-nonsense/) > [Genocidal Race Traitor: Contemporary White Nationalism and Supremacy](http://genocidalracetraitor.blogspot.com/2013/08/contemporary-white-nationalism-and.html) > [Private Site](https://itsnobody.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/debunking-the-atheistracist-muslim-rape-lie-in-sweden/) > And debunking anti-islam fevere > [https://www.quora.com/Is-Islam-the-most-violent-religion-in-the-world](https://www.quora.com/Is-Islam-the-most-violent-religion-in-the-world) > [http://www.quora.com/Why-Muslim-majority-countries-secular-and-non-secular-have-low-crime-rate-as-compared-to-Christian-and-Non-Muslim-countries](http://www.quora.com/Why-Muslim-majority-countries-secular-and-non-secular-have-low-crime-rate-as-compared-to-Christian-and-Non-Muslim-countries) > Finally argument to the majority is a bad idea: [Portal Libertarianismo - Evoluindo Ideais e Indivíduos](http://www.libertarianismo.org/livros/tmotrvbc.pdf) > [The Myth of the Rational Voter | Cato Unbound](http://www.cato-unbound.org/2006/11/05/bryan-caplan/myth-rational-voter) > [Donald Trump: Same Anti-Immigration Ideas, New Salesman](http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/17/donald-trump-on-immigration-same-anti-immigration-ideas-new-salesman/) ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/2 "2015-08-31T17:47:17Z")
I have to say that I find it incredibly weird that Sweden has become part of this debate. Not sure what is going on. It seems as if our local neo-nazis have been successful in spreading a very strange image of the country that only exist in their paranoid little minds. There is a point to be made that Sweden for some reason has been absorbing a much higher amount of refugees than any other country in the EU (per capita) and this has brought with it problems. The problem however is not an upswing in crime (which hasn’t happened) but rather that we do not have a very good infrastructure in place to help these people with integration. This is both a cultural problem and a problem of failed policies. Our “Swedish for immigrants” program is mostly very ineffective and not adapted to the needs of refugees, and our bureaucratic approach to work market and employment is not very effective either. Due to the influx of new people who are unaccustomed to our culture and political machine, we’re seeing a rise in unemployment and shortage of housing. Those are actually real problems that need to be addressed. We need to: - Open up the work market and make it easier to employ non-Swedes - Reform our building and zoning laws to make it easier and cheaper to build houses - Find new methods of teaching immigrants and refugees swedish - Generally make our bureaucracy more intuitive and streamlined What is absolutely not happening is that Sweden is being turned into “Swedistan” (a cute expression I’ve run across). Murder rates are at an all time low and there is no significant increase in rape or other violent crimes. Statistically the rape crime does tend to be skewed in international comparisons because the way it is reported and counted in Sweden is very different. If a husband rapes his wife 40 times, that is reported as 40 cases of rape here, whereas in most nations it is reported as one crime. From what I can understand that is the reason for the anomaly. It’s quite ridiculous. The real problems here is that unemployment is very high (to Swedish standards) and that the educational system that used to be our pride and joy has been slipping over the last decades. But for some reason the paranoid nationalists and neo-nazis have managed to communicate their picture of what is going on. It really has no basis in reality, and as a non-crazy Swede I’m surprised and perplexed to se Sweden showing up in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/3 "2015-08-31T18:16:15Z")
Sweden seems to have become the victim of the same fictional strain of US journalism that rendered London a post-apocalyptic hellscape in the early 2000s purportedly because of its unarmed policemen. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/4 "2015-08-31T19:29:33Z")
I didn’t click on the links to see where Sweden comes in, but on a trip to Stockholm in 1982 I saw ‘[n-word] go home!’ written on the sidewalk. I have no idea if it was written by an English-speaker who wanted to vent in a foreign country, if it was written by a Swede who was sending a message specifically to English-speaking Blacks, or if it was written by someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/5 "2015-08-31T19:29:55Z")
Is the topic Trump, or Sweden’s policies? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/6 "2015-08-31T19:33:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I didn’t click on the links to see where Sweden comes in, but on a trip to Stockholm in 1982 I saw ‘[n-word] go home!’ written on the sidewalk. I have no idea if it was written by an English-speaker who wanted to vent in a foreign country, if it was written by a Swede who was sending a message specifically to English-speaking Blacks, or if it was written by someone else. There is no question that there is racism in Sweden, we even have neo-nazis here. And the nationalist (I’d say covertly racist) party has gained a lot in popularity, getting almost 13% of the popular vote in the last election. The amount of racism and anti-muslim resentment isn’t evidence that we are suffering from an “invasion” or “demographic bomb” though. Personally I think the racists are a bigger and more urgent problem than the people they are railing against. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/7 "2015-08-31T19:38:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is the topic Trump, or Sweden’s policies? I think it’s a poll to see who wants to click on the OP’s links while at work. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/8 "2015-08-31T19:56:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think it’s a poll to see who wants to click on the OP’s links while at work. In case anyone is wondering, the folks at the first site are still offering the twofer on Confederate Battle Flags for a $50 donation. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/9 "2015-08-31T19:59:50Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I have to say that I find it incredibly weird that Sweden has become part of this debate. Not sure what is going on. It seems as if our local neo-nazis have been successful in spreading a very strange image of the country that only exist in their paranoid little minds. > > There is a point to be made that Sweden for some reason has been absorbing a much higher amount of refugees than any other country in the EU (per capita) and this has brought with it problems. The problem however is not an upswing in crime (which hasn’t happened) but rather that we do not have a very good infrastructure in place to help these people with integration. This is both a cultural problem and a problem of failed policies. Our “Swedish for immigrants” program is mostly very ineffective and not adapted to the needs of refugees, and our bureaucratic approach to work market and employment is not very effective either. Due to the influx of new people who are unaccustomed to our culture and political machine, we’re seeing a rise in unemployment and shortage of housing. > > Those are actually real problems that need to be addressed. We need to: > > - Open up the work market and make it easier to employ non-Swedes > - Reform our building and zoning laws to make it easier and cheaper to build houses > - Find new methods of teaching immigrants and refugees swedish > - Generally make our bureaucracy more intuitive and streamlined > > What is absolutely not happening is that Sweden is being turned into “Swedistan” (a cute expression I’ve run across). Murder rates are at an all time low and there is no significant increase in rape or other violent crimes. Statistically the rape crime does tend to be skewed in international comparisons because the way it is reported and counted in Sweden is very different. If a husband rapes his wife 40 times, that is reported as 40 cases of rape here, whereas in most nations it is reported as one crime. From what I can understand that is the reason for the anomaly. > > It’s quite ridiculous. The real problems here is that unemployment is very high (to Swedish standards) and that the educational system that used to be our pride and joy has been slipping over the last decades. But for some reason the paranoid nationalists and neo-nazis have managed to communicate their picture of what is going on. It really has no basis in reality, and as a non-crazy Swede I’m surprised and perplexed to se Sweden showing up in this context. Worse is that this is an example of otherwise good men being led astray by not knowing the issues. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/10 "2015-08-31T20:11:56Z")
ryu, You’ve developed a habit of starting threads with very minimal content in Great Debates. It’s custom here for people to take a position and make an argument from that position. You are failing to do so. From here on out, I want you to become a greater part of the board culture and start threads with actual content and not just links. Doing this any further may result in the eventual loss of your ability to post here. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/11 "2015-08-31T20:15:07Z")
Another Swede here. I don’t get what the OP is about, and I’m not clicking through fifteen links to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/12 "2015-08-31T20:41:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sweden seems to have become the victim of the same fictional strain of US journalism that rendered London a post-apocalyptic hellscape in the early 2000s purportedly because of its unarmed policemen. When in reality it’s because of its fish 'n chips. You don’t want to be the toilet, let me tell you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/13 "2015-08-31T21:30:31Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > ryu, > > You’ve developed a habit of starting threads with very minimal content in Great Debates. It’s custom here for people to take a position and make an argument from that position. You are failing to do so. > > From here on out, I want you to become a greater part of the board culture and start threads with actual content and not just links. Doing this any further may result in the eventual loss of your ability to post here. A further suggestion: While your posts tend to indicate personal opposition to racism, xenophobia, and related problems, your persistent linking to sites that promote those feelings is leaving a lot of posters with the impression that you are actually hoping that the SDMB will fail to refute that nonsense, indicating that you actually support those beliefs. (This was the source of the accusation that you were JAQing off: we see several new posters each year who throw out similar links and ask for opinions about them, then deny that they are supporting such views, although they eventually turn out to be supporters.) To avoid giving the wrong impression, back off, a bit. Give your threads time to percolate through, and take a stronger position regarding your actual beliefs. (And don’t flood the thread with links to sites with which you disagree. Demonstrating the point you oppose with a single link will not hurt your thesis.) ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/14 "2015-08-31T23:38:30Z")
I do have a problem with explaining myself I admit… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/15 "2015-09-01T00:02:43Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > I do have a problem with explaining myself I admit… Well, here’s your chance to try. IRON EXPLAINER COMPETITION! Sixty minutes, three paragraphs, no links. What are your beliefs about race? Required ingredient words: -United States -Civil Rights -African American -White -Radicchio Go! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/16 "2015-09-01T02:09:13Z")
Radicchio? Wasn’t he in that movie with Pat Morita? No, wait, I think he’s the one who used to edit _Thor._ (I have very little idea what this thread is about. Kobal’s mocking the English, Stoneburg’s talking about Nazis, and the OP said something about Trump.) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/17 "2015-09-01T02:40:51Z")
What this thread is about is posting a bunch of links to white nationalist sites, and then acting confused when people ask you why you posted a bunch of links to white nationalist sites. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/18 "2015-09-01T03:26:18Z")
The VDare article is certainly correct in perceiving a racist element in Trump’s appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/19 "2015-09-01T06:07:39Z")
Randomly clicked on one of the OP’s links - [this one](https://itsnobody.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/debunking-the-atheistracist-muslim-rape-lie-in-sweden/) - and learned that > [@](#): > > In Sweden, a liberal atheist country, throwing rocks at Somalians and beating Jews is just normal and common, and normally accepted by liberal atheist Swedes. I think Sweden’s new slogan should be “Come come beat a Jew, this is Sweden”. Beating Jews is like a national pastime in Sweden. Is this a joke, OP? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515/20 "2015-09-01T13:55:06Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Randomly clicked on one of the OP’s links - [this one](https://itsnobody.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/debunking-the-atheistracist-muslim-rape-lie-in-sweden/) - and learned that > > Is this a joke, OP? It’s just so hard to refute those cites! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-identity-or-democracy/729515.md?page=2)