# White liberals dumb themselves down when they speak to black people, a new study contends **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553 "2018-12-04T16:25:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/101 "2018-12-06T04:29:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This reinforces criticisms libertarians and conservatives have of the liberal political program. Why should black people not be concerned about agency? Because white liberals want to be the white knight who lifts black people up against evil whites. The black person is an atom ping-ponging around in the white man’s universe. Black people rise and fall because of what the white man does and they are helpless to overcome this fate. They must bond together in communion with good whites against the bad whites. Speaking of agency, there’s nothing I love quite as much as watching a conservative try to argue that blacks are being taken for a ride by the Democrats, because none of you guys can seem to figure out that, “Conservatives aren’t nearly as racist as you think, and you’d see that if you weren’t collectively too stupid to see through Democrat lies,” is a self-refuting argument. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/102 "2018-12-06T04:49:49Z")
In my personal life I try to dumb down my language to everyone equally, because 5 dollar words, even if more descriptive and accurate, tend to distract rather than elucidate. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/103 "2018-12-06T05:36:28Z")
OK, so we have some evidence that white liberal politicians aren’t quite as non-racist as some people would like to think. This is news? I bet you could ask any black person, and they could tell you some stories. However, what’s the takeaway here? That liberals are the real racists? Is that the takeaway? I guess with this new study, 2020 is gonna be the year that the Negroes are finally going to start voting Republican? Why exactly is it, do you think, that although white liberals are also kinda racist, black people don’t wanna vote Republican? Is 2020 going to be the year when Republicans crack double digits in the percentage of the black vote? Why is it, do you think, that black voters vote overwhelmingly for white liberals, who it seems are a bit racist, over conservatives? What’s wrong with the Negroes, that they keep voting for the racist white liberals? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/104 "2018-12-06T10:02:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I just recognize that the findings of the study tell us about why the liberals favor certain policies. Can you explain that, then? Slowly, for us dumb folk that don’t like big words. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/105 "2018-12-06T14:02:06Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > OK, so we have some evidence that white liberal politicians aren’t quite as non-racist as some people would like to think. > > This is news? I bet you could ask any black person, and they could tell you some stories. > > However, what’s the takeaway here? That liberals feel the need to talk down to black people, and conservatives don’t. And that liberals are afraid that if they talk to black people as they would to everyone else, they will be thought of as racist, and conservatives aren’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/106 "2018-12-06T14:25:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That liberals feel the need to talk down to black people, and conservatives don’t. And that liberals are afraid that if they talk to black people as they would to everyone else, they will be thought of as racist, and conservatives aren’t. > > Regards, > Shodan There’s no actual data that suggests this is the case, but feel free to crow your preconceived notions (and apparent ignorance of the facts of language and dialect), if you like. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/107 "2018-12-06T14:26:49Z")
nm (duplicate) ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/108 "2018-12-06T14:26:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok thanks for your input. > > Why would white liberals think agency is not valuable to black folks? It seems like an empowering concept. The black folks I’m familiar with value empowerment and agency just as much if not moreso than white folks. Maybe white liberals do not share this experience and do not have data to support such a claim. Unfortunate. Maybe they would adopt better policies if they did. > > Why do they think white people would be more comfortable with “melancholy” while black people would be more comfortable with “sad”? Maybe they talked to some actual black leaders (like ministers who are used to connecting with large audiences who may not have had prep school educations or taken SAT word building classes) and they suggested that approach. Or maybe, and I realize this is a radical concept to Republicans, they talked to actual black people in the community who suggested this would be the better way to connect to their friends and neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/109 "2018-12-06T14:28:20Z")
So why is it, do you think, that the negroes foolishly keep voting for these racist white liberals rather than the egalitarian white conservatives? It’s a puzzlement. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/110 "2018-12-06T14:31:34Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/111 "2018-12-06T14:52:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s no actual data that suggests this is the case, but feel free to crow your preconceived notions (and apparent ignorance of the facts of language and dialect), if you like. Apart from the study cited in the OP, you mean. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/112 "2018-12-06T15:11:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apart from the study cited in the OP, you mean. > > Regards, > Shodan That study does not support your conclusions in any way at all. Right-wing fantasizing doesn’t equal a data-supported conclusion (especially one with such unscientific and subjective assertions like “talking down to…” and “afraid they will be thought of…”). Those are political opinions, not scientific conclusions. There’s no possible data (aside from, possibly, very specific and focused polling that asks these specific questions) that could possibly indicate such unscientific assertions as “talking down to…” or “afraid they will be thought of as…”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/113 "2018-12-06T15:16:35Z")
After looking through the study, one theme from the authors is that people who want to be liked by minorities engage in the downshift. So both Democratic and Republican politicians engage in a downshift, but Democrats to a greater degree. The conclusion also hypothesizes that conservatives who are not politicians or students at a university seem to have less interest in affiliating with a minority partner as compared to a white one. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/114 "2018-12-06T16:27:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have no interest in rehabilitating Trump “conservatives”. You asked about Trump, so I told you what I thought about his speech. > > Being condescending is probably the least objectionable thing liberals do to sell their snake oil. If you have a problem, talk to the authors of the study and tell them their fiindings are counterproductive. I just recognize that the findings of the study tell us about why the liberals favor certain policies. Then please do help me out here. Tell me a specific liberal and what exactly the _findings of this study_ tell us about why that person favors a specific policy. Because if this cannot be done, as I’ve said, I see no point to it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/115 "2018-12-06T16:38:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This reinforces criticisms libertarians and conservatives have of the liberal political program. Sadly, it probably will. Sad, because it makes it easy to group a wide swath of people, who may describe themselves as “liberal”, but who even so still express a variety of beliefs, as a monolithic like-thinking group. If I’ve seen it once, I’ve seen it a thousand times: liberals [insert criticism of choice] do this, and liberals do that, oftentimes based on nothing more than what a single liberal did that is in the news that day. This is not limited to liberal bashers of course, but to me it’s the biggest problem on social media today. No, not every liberal wants to turn government over to the communists and not every conservative wants to ban African-Americans from voting. This “study” is nothing more than a continuation of this sort of thing, dressed up in fancy statistical terms. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/116 "2018-12-06T16:39:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > So. yeah, this is a case where some conservatives do not mind about how deep they keep digging… I have no idea why you think I care about or wish to defend what Donald says. > [@Miller](#): > > Speaking of agency, there’s nothing I love quite as much as watching a conservative try to argue that blacks are being taken for a ride by the Democrats, because none of you guys can seem to figure out that, “Conservatives aren’t nearly as racist as you think, and you’d see that if you weren’t collectively too stupid to see through Democrat lies,” is a self-refuting argument. Then perhaps you should find a thread where they are doing that if you love it so much. > [@Lemur866](#): > > OK, so we have some evidence that white liberal politicians aren’t quite as non-racist as some people would like to think. > > This is news? I bet you could ask any black person, and they could tell you some stories. > > However, what’s the takeaway here? That liberals are the real racists? Is that the takeaway? I guess with this new study, 2020 is gonna be the year that the Negroes are finally going to start voting Republican? Why exactly is it, do you think, that although white liberals are also kinda racist, black people don’t wanna vote Republican? Is 2020 going to be the year when Republicans crack double digits in the percentage of the black vote? Why is it, do you think, that black voters vote overwhelmingly for white liberals, who it seems are a bit racist, over conservatives? What’s wrong with the Negroes, that they keep voting for the racist white liberals? The takeaway is that one possible reason white liberals endorse policies to elevate certain minorities based skin color is because they believe the minorities are not as competent as their white competitors. Perhaps you could find a study to answer your questions about black voting habits. > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Can you explain that, then? Slowly, for us dumb folk that don’t like big words. Above > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Maybe they talked to some actual black leaders (like ministers who are used to connecting with large audiences who may not have had prep school educations or taken SAT word building classes) and they suggested that approach. Or maybe, and I realize this is a radical concept to Republicans, they talked to actual black people in the community who suggested this would be the better way to connect to their friends and neighbors. Possibly but my personal experience suggests “power” and “agency” speeches would be embraced by black folks. I understand that you may not be convinced by that. > [@Lemur866](#): > > So why is it, do you think, that the negroes foolishly keep voting for these racist white liberals rather than the egalitarian white conservatives? It’s a puzzlement. Yes it is. I don’t have the answers. > [@Ravenman](#): > > After looking through the study, one theme from the authors is that people who want to be liked by minorities engage in the downshift. So both Democratic and Republican politicians engage in a downshift, but Democrats to a greater degree. The conclusion also hypothesizes that conservatives who are not politicians or students at a university seem to have less interest in affiliating with a minority partner as compared to a white one. Any thoughts on why individual-empowering language is dropped by white liberals? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/117 "2018-12-06T16:40:51Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Sadly, it probably will. Sad, because it makes it easy to group a wide swath of people, who may describe themselves as “liberal”, but who even so still express a variety of beliefs, as a monolithic like-thinking group. If I’ve seen it once, I’ve seen it a thousand times: liberals [insert criticism of choice] do this, and liberals do that, oftentimes based on nothing more than what a single liberal did that is in the news that day. This is not limited to “liberal” bashers of course, but to me it’s the biggest problem on social media today. No, not every liberal wants to turn government over to the communists and not every conservative wants to ban African-Americans from voting. > > This “study” is nothing more than a continuation of this sort of thing, dressed up in fancy statistical terms. It is worthless. A valid critique of soft-“science” in general. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/118 "2018-12-06T16:42:59Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Then please do help me out here. Tell me a specific liberal and what exactly the _findings of this study_ tell us about why that person favors a specific policy. Because if this cannot be done, as I’ve said, I see no point to it. Not much can be assumed on an individual level. If you want to take a radical individualist stance, I encourage it. This may be one of those few instances where liberals do that, so I will take what I can get. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/119 "2018-12-06T16:50:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Not much can be assumed on an individual level. If you want to take a radical individualist stance, I encourage it. This may be one of those few instances where liberals do that, so I will take what I can get. You just did what I _just now_ criticized. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553/120 "2018-12-06T16:51:26Z")
There very well may be small bit of soft bigotry of low expectations at play, however I think perhaps part of it is also the perception that black people are more “real” and appreciate authenticity. I don’t think they are the same thing, though they are both likely based on stereotypes which may or may not be based on reality. I do not think the latter is is as harmful as the former. I mean, if you’re having a bad day and somebody asks how you’re feeling, nobody (wierdos excepted) says “melancholy”, nor or bunch of other flowery words, which, lets face it, a lot of people deliberately use to appear more intelligent in their writing, and nothing more. So if you’re going to be “real” in writing, it will match the way you talk. Iis “being real” the same thing as “dumbing down”? I don’t really think so, but even so, I think the intent is totally different. The former is not assuming the audience is unintelligent or illiterate, the latter does assume that. Intent determines how “bad” it is in my opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-to-black-people-a-new-study-contends/825553.md?page=7)