# White Nationalism: Continued debate from BBQ
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 19, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011 "2002-10-19T20:58:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/1 "2002-10-19T20:58:24Z")
_Response to Libertarian_ -
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> Sionnach
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> Given Gaudere’s welcome, I’d like you to consider opening a Great Debate topic. I’ll even meet you half way by acknowledging your most recent point as having some merit.
Consider it done!
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> I have to say that I am often put off when such diverse people as the Pequot and the Shoshone are lumped into one group. Nevertheless, there are quite many examples of things diverse tribes of Indians share culturally that most others don’t. So, I am willing to concede your point that there might be a double standard often applied.
Exactly. I think the same can be said of Caucasians. We are diverse amongst ourselves, yet there are similarities we share culturally that others don’t, and may have a _common interest_ sometimes in banding together as a group.
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> In fact, I’m often flummoxed when I see people decry the existence of race and then turn right around to cite studies showing that Blacks are indeed as intelligent as Whites. If those races don’t exist, then the studies cited are worthless.
I have noticed that the “Race doesn’t exist” arguement is only used when politically convenient to certain agendas.
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> I also cringe a bit when someone asks something like “what is western civilization?”. I might be betraying my age, but it was something we spent a whole year studying in high school.
Some people spend half their time intellectually attacking Western Civilization, and the other half saying it “doesn’t exist” when someone views Western Civilization as something to unite Caucasians, culturally.
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> I do wonder, though, why the white supremacists make an issue out of homosexuality. Even if race does exist, there are homosexuals in every race including the white one. So why the hatred of gays?
There you go with the “supremacist” word :). I don’t want supremacy over anyone, but this is a diversion of semantics.
As for homosexuality, we have varied views on the subject. Some of us, such as myself, don’t care what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. What is rejected is the political agenda of it all, such as parading about the street screaming about your sexual habits and going down the road of the “civil rights” movement with their sexuality, thrusting it on schoolchildren, and supporting “Hate (thought) Crimes” legislation. In other words, more liberal government bureaucratic hogwash shoved down our throats in the name of “civil rights”.
Now, like it or not, many people of certain religious faiths are opposed to homosexuality. Of course, many WN’s do have religious faith. Some think it is a mental sickness or chosen perversion. Most don’t really care what causes it, just keep it in the bedroom.
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> I noticed that, at your board, there is a rule against insulting white people. And yet, I saw one of your moderators call a white man a “queer”. Wasn’t that insulting a white person? That rule, by the way, is the main reason I won’t post there. I saw no mention of a rule against insulting other races. I am Cherokee and I don’t see what it would profit me to endure your insults.
I don’t make the rules, and I don’t enforce them. I only follow them, since they are private boards. I wouldn’t insult you for being Cherokee.
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> So, I guess I’m asking whether you make even further distinctions than what you perceive as race. Is it really more like White Strictly Heterosexual Mainstream Protestant Gentile Unadulterated European Descent Supremacy?
There you go with the “Supremacy” word again! On our board, you can read the FAQ. If you have not done so, I suggest you do. If you have, you should know the answer. It’s definately not just a “Protestant” movement.
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> Oh, yeah. And by the way, what exactly is “jewspeak”?
LoL! In the words of a Justice of the US Supreme Court, “I don’t know how to define it, but I know it when I see it.” 😉
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### Author:  [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/2 "2002-10-19T21:09:09Z")
Before anyone asks, here’s the [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=139768&pagenumber=3)
Sionnach, you can thank me later. These people are nuts about links!
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### Author:  [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/3 "2002-10-19T21:15:07Z")
where this started, for those of you who are curious: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=139768](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=139768)
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> I have noticed that the “Race doesn’t exist” arguement is only used when politically convenient to certain agendas.
I am one ofthe “race doesn’t exist” people, but only in a biological sense. Humans have sex with anything that moves, which leads to large amounts of children being born from multiple ethnic backgrounds. The differences between so called races biologically is pretty much inconsequential. Biologists now use population instead of race when doing genetic samples from across the world. Race is relavent as a Sociological concept, and anyone who denies that Micheal Jordan and Ronald Reagan have different cultural identifiers is just fooling themselves. For more information than you can probably stand on the subject, search for one of the many race threads in GD.
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### Author:  [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/4 "2002-10-19T21:16:11Z")
**light strand**! Why i outta…
😉
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### Author:  [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/5 "2002-10-19T21:19:45Z")
[A Geneticist agues for the idea of Race](http://www.iht.com/articles/66401.html)
Thoughts?
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/6 "2002-10-19T21:22:50Z")
I’d like to add that I personally find the term “Caucasian” puzzling, as I am NOT from the Caucasus, and in fact, know only one individual who is.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/7 "2002-10-19T21:23:08Z")
> [@](#):
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> What is rejected is the political agenda of it all, such as parading about the street screaming about your sexual habits and going down the road of the “civil rights” movement with their sexuality, thrusting it on schoolchildren, and supporting “Hate (thought) Crimes” legislation. In other words, more liberal government bureaucratic hogwash shoved down our throats in the name of “civil rights”.
As a gay guy, may I say that, I, too, reject the more outré behavior of some radicals, but that does not in any way detract from the justice of the argument that gay people should not suffer from legal discrimination.
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### Author:  [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/8 "2002-10-19T21:25:28Z")
Sionnach said:
> [@](#):
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> What is rejected is the political agenda of it all, such as parading about the street screaming about your sexual habits and going down the road of the “civil rights” movement with their sexuality, thrusting it on schoolchildren, and supporting “Hate (thought) Crimes” legislation. In other words, more liberal government bureaucratic hogwash shoved down our throats in the name of “civil rights”.
How is having a parade “liberal government bureaucratic hogwash”? How is teaching schoolchildren to be accepting of others a _bad_ thing?
As for your cute little smiley regarding “jewspeak,” do you always find it so amusing to throw around bigoted insults? Just curious.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/9 "2002-10-19T21:28:45Z")
But as I said in the Pit thread, race as a biological classifier is increasingly being viewed as chimerical, yet race as a cultural and political concept is a powerful component of our society. An African American from Georgia and an Australian Aborigine Coober Pedy may have have little in common genetically, but because they share some phenotypic traits, like thick lips, kinky hair, and dark skin, they are bundled together as “black” people.
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### Author:  [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/10 "2002-10-19T21:29:30Z")
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> As a gay guy, may I say that, I, too, reject the more outré behavior of some radicals, but that does not in any way detract from the justice of the argument that gay people should not suffer from legal discrimination.
It is in my opinion that a private business or organization has the right to discriminate against whomever they wish. In other words, it’s not the State’s business.
As for “discrimination” by the State itself in terms of police, law, etc, I don’t think the State should be poking itself into your bedroom, either.
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### Author:  [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/11 "2002-10-19T21:31:07Z")
The debate **Sionnach** is referring to really starts on page 2 of the linked thread, in case you don’t want to read through the first page and a half of SDMB policy.
**Sionnach** , do you think you could take a stab at my questions regarding how you define “white culture” and “Western civilization”?
To recap for those joining us late in the game, I had pointed out that white folk actually come from a tremendously diverse assortment of European cultures, and asked what tied them all together so that they actually fit in the same category. **Sionnach** responded that he/she preferred the term “Western civilization,” to which I responded that the same objection applied. I believe that’s where we stood when **Gaudere** invited our guest to drop by GD to discuss things further.
And allow me to say that I do hope this _remains_ a polite and productive debate.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/12 "2002-10-19T21:34:31Z")
> [@](#):
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> Exactly. I think the same can be said of Caucasians. We are diverse amongst ourselves, yet there are similarities we share culturally that others don’t, and may have a common interest sometimes in banding together as a group.
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> I have noticed that the “Race doesn’t exist” arguement is only used when politically convenient to certain agendas.
Any examples of either of these claims?
By the way, while the issue does not have a single voice on the SDMB, the specific statement regarding race not existing that is most frequently presented is not “Race does not exist.” The actual statements follow a line of thought:
Race clearly does exist in a cultural or sociological setting, in which people divide each other into groups based on a few aspects of appearance.
From a biological perspective, however, there are too many genetic similarities among all people to permit the division of peoples into the older classical definitions of “races” (whether three or five or sixty). Among any large groups of people, we will find more differences among individuals within the arbitrarily defined groups than we will between any two supposed groups.
There are a few regions of the world where people have been sufficiently isolated for sufficient time to develop “characteristic” genetic structures. Biologists use the word _populations_ to identify them. None of these populations are large enough to be mapped onto any of the three or five or sixty purported biological races and no population is large enough to support the use of the word race.
There are a couple of other aspects to these discussions:
As noted, people can and do use appearance to try to establish who belongs to races. This allows them to set up their own rules of association–and has sometimes resulted in the creation of laws to regulate the lives of people within those perceived races. In this case, race certainly exists–however, that cultural choice of association or law is simply not supported by biological analysis.
When Linnaeus and Blumenbach first began to categorize people and looked for a word to assign to their categories, the chose a word that was already in use for a _similar_ meaning. Prior to Linnaeus and Blumenbach, the word race referred to any group of people who were associated by a common real or legendary ancestor. Thus, the Jewish people were the “race of Abraham” and the Irish were the “Milesian race”, based not on actual parentage, but by association with a distant leader. That use of the word continues, today, _alongside_ the sociological meaning and (now obsolete) biological meaning, but causes confusion when people _confuse_ the meaning of “Jewish race” with the meaning of “white race.” (This becomes more clear when one realizes that biologists always included the Jewish people in the Caucasian “race” (although some people try to invent reasons to refuse to believe it).
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### Author:  [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/13 "2002-10-19T21:34:36Z")
> [@](#):
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> How is having a parade “liberal government bureaucratic hogwash”? How is teaching schoolchildren to be accepting of others a bad thing?
Some people have religious beliefs that should be respected. I don’t think Sexuality belongs in State-funded education in the first place.
Then again, I think public education itself has been disastrous and will always lead to conflicts of this sort between different groups wanting power over the minds of children.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/14 "2002-10-19T21:36:32Z")
> [@](#):
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> It is in my opinion that a private business or organization has the right to discriminate against whomever they wish. In other words, it’s not the State’s business.
Note that I said “legal discrimination”, that is, discrimination by the State. Gay people cannot have legal unions; they cannot automatically inherit from their partners; they cannot be listed as “next of kin”; they cannot share in most healthcare insurance as straight people can; they cannot benefit from filing joint tax returns, and so on, and so on.
I agree with your point on allowing private organizations to discrminate as long as the organization receives no state or federal funding. You can keep me out of your bridge club, but not out of the public library.
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### Author:  [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/15 "2002-10-19T21:36:37Z")
**DavidB** , I brought up the term “jewspeak” in Pit thread, as a joking reference to the moderation standards of that other place. **Sionnach** , so far, has neither used nor endorsed the term.
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### Author:  [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/16 "2002-10-19T21:40:43Z")
Sionnach said:
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> Some people have religious beliefs that should be respected. I don’t think Sexuality belongs in State-funded education in the first place.
You didn’t respond to the part of my question about the parades.
As far as sexuality belonging in state-funded education, doesn’t it make sense to have tolerance taught in a place where there are a wide variety of backgrounds?
And why didn’t you answer my question about your “jewspeak” comment? I find it especially ironic considering you got in a huff about the word “supremacist.”
So in one message, you’ve already ignored two items out of the three. Not a good starting record.
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### Author:  [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/17 "2002-10-19T21:42:58Z")
> [@](#):
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> Sionnach, do you think you could take a stab at my questions regarding how you define “white culture” and “Western civilization”?
I’ll have to second Lib on this one and say that Western Civ is something that should have been taught to you in school. It’s the civilization by the people of Europe. Europeans have diversity amongst themselves, but also have cultural similarities linking them together that other cultures do not share, such as Christianity, Renaissance and Enlightenment, etc.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/18 "2002-10-19T21:45:29Z")
**Minty Green** , I think you are picking on our visitor unfairly–Western Civ may be hard to define, but that’s why the typical Western Civ hit-the-highlights survey course takes two semesters. Western Civ covers the development of European civilization from the victory of Greek democracies over Persian satrapy to the the modern offshoots of European colonization, the US, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. Just because it may be hard to define does not mean that Western Civ as a concept does not exist. Western Civ, granted, covers a wide swath of territory–from Shakespeare to Stephen King, from the Parthenon to the Sears Tower, from the Bronze Age to Britney Spears.
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### Author:  [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/19 "2002-10-19T21:45:30Z")
Regarding “jewspeak,” thanks minty – but I have to say that the reference to “I know it when I see it” plus the little smiley did not do wonders, credibility-wise. Nor did ignoring it when I brought it up…
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### Author:  [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/20 "2002-10-19T21:48:22Z")
> [@](#):
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> You didn’t respond to the part of my question about the parades.
What about parades? I think they are silly, but my comment about bureaucratic liberal mumbo-jumbo referred to hate crimes legislation and lawsuits.
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> As far as sexuality belonging in state-funded education, doesn’t it make sense to have tolerance taught in a place where there are a wide variety of backgrounds?
Repeat: _I think public education itself has been disastrous and will always lead to conflicts of this sort between different groups wanting power over the minds of children._
The “Tolerance” preached by some often leads to intolerance of non-political correctness. Non-acceptance of homosexuality is a _religious tradition_ that should be respected. Thus, the issue shouldn’t be taught in school in the first place. As for protecting students, definately chastise them if they are being abusive towards someone else.
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