# White Nationalism: Continued debate from BBQ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011 "2002-10-19T20:58:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/61 "2002-10-20T18:23:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > …I would ship all the Zionist activists and supporters to Israel. They are dual-loyalists… > > \*When you talk about rights, what type of rights are you referring to? I’ve noticed that when liberals discuss rights, they actually mean the “right” to dictate their philosophies onto others… > > Rights to free speech have turned into the “Right” to be free from any criticism and any speech that might “hurt feelings”.\* Since you support granting the state the power to forcibly deport people who disgree with you on questions of foreign policy, I don’t think much of your defense of “rights” and “free speech”. Although you may try to portray it as such, your White Nationalism does not strike me as a particularly libertarian philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/62 "2002-10-20T18:28:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Since you support granting the state the power to forcibly deport people who disgree with you on questions of foreign policy, I don’t think much of your defense of “rights” and “free speech”. > > Although you may try to portray it as such, your White Nationalism does not strike me as a particularly libertarian philosophy. I am not a Libertarian. I’m more paleoconservative, as I have stated. WN is not a Libertarian philosophy, and never claimed to be. I don’t extend freedom of speech to apply to people who manipulate the government into supporting a foreign nation over their own. > [@](#): > > The following story demonstates, then, that we indeed have a problem. Marshall Gardiner must have believed that intestate laws would protect his wife and therefore a will was unnecessary. Apparently he was wrong. Sorry, your whole story had nothing to do with a will. The guy did not write up a will. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/63 "2002-10-20T19:00:31Z")
The point is that homosexuals should not have to resort to odd means by which to approximate the legal condition of marriage. Homosexuals can fulfill all the relevant obligations and exchanges of married couples: it makes no sense to deny them access to the legal arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/64 "2002-10-20T19:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > Yes, there is a variety. The same observation applies to left-wing groups. You have your leftists that are more freedom-oriented and support free speech, then you have your leftists that want to ban certain speech in the name of tolerance. As a Canadian, it’s the latter that has predominance. That’s fine. And to the extent that they are all participants in a common movement or organization my same points would apply to them. I hope you do not intend to parry any and all questions about yourself and your movement by pointing to leftists and saying they do it too. > [@](#): > > One major common link between the strict WN and the more Paleoconservative positions like myself, is that we all completely oppose third world immigration and Zionist control of government/media. Aren’t even leftists tired of forking over billions of dollars a year to Israel and supporting that country unconditionally? Strange that you should ask. If you would pay attention to the news these days you would observe that support for Israel is strongest on the right wing of the political spectrum; it is weakest on the left. I’m not sure what your point is here, in any event. > [@](#): > > Why aren’t leftists concerned about the double standards in the media regarding “hate crimes”? This is something I’d really like answered. When a negro was dragged to death by a white man, there were speeches by the President and nationwide outrage. When five whites were dragged to a field by two negros and sexually assaulted, then four executed with one lady surviving the gunshot wound, the media was silent. Why the double standard besides perhaps the media having some agenda about “white racism” being some huge evil thing and blacks all being victims? Again, parrying by pointing to the left – see above. FTR, I am not a leftist, and I do agree that something of a double standard exists. In the case at hand it is not as glaring, as it is not completely clear (AFAIK) that the crime was perpetuated for racial reasons. In any event, I don’t think this is at all relevant to the specific questions that I asked. > [@](#): > > I have never claimed to speak for anyone but myself. I came here because I noticed that I was personally mentioned, and felt like clearing a few things up with a deluded poster. People began asking questions, so I remain for the time being. I would be dishonest if I claimed to represent all WN, but I have not done so. OK, but let’s be clear about it – the title of this thread would seem to suggest otherwise. I rather suspect that many people are interested in your opinions only to the extent that they purport to be those of the WN movement. To the extent that they represent those of one anonymous woman in Canada they are of far less significance. And you’ve not addressed the first half of the question. > [@](#): > > If you want to debate the positions of other people, you should have done so on SF without resorting to sarcasm and ignoring the mods. There are “antis” that have a 100+ post count and are still there. The difference between them and the ones who get banned, is that they don’t come in acting uppity and defying the moderator when he asks to tone down the sarcasm. That’s all great. But I am not debating the positions of other people. My questions here were specifically addressed to _you_ with regards to _your_ positions and the legitimacy of _your_ arguments here, in light of the positions of others in your movement. > [@](#): > > As for what _I_ want, here is one scenario of it. Keep in mind that I only speak for myself. I would close off all third-world immigration. I would deport illegals and immigrants guilty of crime. I would ship all the Zionist activists and supporters to Israel. They are dual-loyalists. People who repeatedly commit violent crime unprovoked would be executed (any self-defense violence does not count). Most of the welfare state would be abolished. Laws dictating who someone has to hire or rent to would be abolished. If they continue to make demands on taxpayers, destroy property, or riot, they will be shipped out. I’m guessing Jesse Jackson would be the first to go. Media monopolies would be broken up. One Jewish family owns most of the media where I live and has an official policy of his papers speaking with “one voice” on certain issues, especially concerning Israel (surprise, surprise!). OK, can you tell me how this would achieve your purported goals of preserving white culture? This (I am treating the US and Canada the same here) would remain a country with a large minority population. How do you escape their influence? > [@](#): > > I would ship all the Zionist activists and supporters to Israel. They are dual-loyalists. Please be more specific. Would your deportation order specify all Jews? How would you sort out the “supporters” from the non-supporters? Would you seize all their assets? What about people of Irish descent who attempt to shape foreign policy with regards to Ireland? Dual loyalists? And what do you think of the German-American Bund, which worked mightily to influence the US in favor of Germany in the 30’s and early 40’s. Should all these dual-loyalists have been shipped over to Germany? > [@](#): > > It’s all a part of the rapid decline of culture. Gay issues are not irrelevant to the preservation of culture at all. Nothing can express that pure degeneration quite like a Gay Pride parade. But you’ve not explained what that has to do with _White_ culture. Unless you can somehow show that gays are a result of some non-White influence, I don’t see the connection. > [@](#): > > As for gay “rights”, I had a question for Lucki Chaarms that I will repost here. Maybe you can reply. Sorry, I’m not one of the big gay rights people here – my issue here is not your opposition to gay rights per se but the tie-in to the WN movement and what this tells us about the underlying motivations of this movement. Maybe one of the Gay Rights people will take you up. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/65 "2002-10-20T19:49:28Z")
Buckner wrote: > [@](#): > > Although you may try to portray it as such, your White Nationalism does not strike me as a particularly libertarian philosophy. That’s for certain. In fact, the more I learn, the more I find it to be at least harmonious with National Socialism. It appears to advocate a sort of Fabianist state control. Sionnach doesn’t seem to like the supremacist label even though it is almost impossible to read most of their posts without seeing phrases that clearly evoke a superiority. I am a White. You are a Negro. I am a straight. You are a queer. And so on. * * * Sionnach wrote: > [@](#): > > Well, a few people in this thread have done so [said a kind word]. Merciful heavens. The kindest thing anyone said there was that homosexuality is a genetic defect. I won’t make the fallacy (not to mention the moral sin) of judging you by their words, but I see no dissent whatsoever with respect to, yet again, another claim of superiority. My brain is normal. Yours is defective. Perhaps “supremacy” does not mean what you think it means. At any rate, I now have a new question. You mention Christianity as one of the unifying points of western culture. Do the White Nationalists understand that Jesus was a Jew? Or do they maintain that He and His disciples were all Caucasian, and that the New Testament is a Jewish fabrication? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/66 "2002-10-20T19:52:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > When a negro was dragged to death by a white man, there were speeches by the President and nationwide outrage. When five whites were dragged to a field by two negros and sexually assaulted, then four executed with one lady surviving the gunshot wound, the media was silent. Why the double standard besides perhaps the media having some agenda about “white racism” being some huge evil thing and blacks all being victims? First, do you have any kind of a citation on the story? I’d like to know what it is you’re talking about. Second, what what is the evidence that the victims were targeted _because_ they were white? It’s quite clear that James Byrd was singled out and killed because he was a black man (“negro” is quite archaic, you know) and the killers hated black people. Where is the evidence that these five white people of whom you speak were singled out because they were white and the killers hated white people? I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but if you’re going to show something was a “hate crime,” that’s what you’ve got to show. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/67 "2002-10-20T20:06:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > I am not a Libertarian. I’m more paleoconservative, as I have stated. WN is not a Libertarian philosophy, and never claimed to be. I don’t extend freedom of speech to apply to people who manipulate the government into supporting a foreign nation over their own. OK, then. However, that sort of makes all the complaints we’ve been hearing the last few days from the White Nationalists about “censorship” ring a little hollow. ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/68 "2002-10-20T20:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The point is that homosexuals should not have to resort to odd means by which to approximate the legal condition of marriage. What is so odd about a will? Get a will and live with your partner. > [@](#): > > That’s fine. And to the extent that they are all participants in a common movement or organization my same points would apply to them. I hope you do not intend to parry any and all questions about yourself and your movement by pointing to leftists and saying they do it too. Read the FAQ. That’s the common movement. Besides the FAQ, all movements have different factions and individuals with different degrees of intensity. The media tries to pigeonhole us into some kind of perfectly homogenous movement that wants to beat up any dissenters. That’s hogwash. > [@](#): > > Strange that you should ask. If you would pay attention to the news these days you would observe that support for Israel is strongest on the right wing of the political spectrum; it is weakest on the left. I’m not sure what your point is here, in any event. By “right-wing”, I suppose you mean neoconservatives. Those creatures are merely Zionists with a Republican mask. Supporting a foreign nation over your own has nothing to do with conservatism. Quite the opposite. I post on a couple right-wing forums that despise Israel as much as Stormfront. No decent right-winger would support handing over taxpayer money to foreigners. > [@](#): > > Again, parrying by pointing to the left – see above. FTR, I am not a leftist, and I do agree that something of a double standard exists. In the case at hand it is not as glaring, as it is not completely clear (AFAIK) that the crime was perpetuated for racial reasons. In any event, I don’t think this is at all relevant to the specific questions that I asked. It’s very clear that whites are targetted by these negro criminals. During the crimes, one of the negroes even asked the white women questions like “Do you like black men?” “Have you ever been with a black man?” I would like an answer by some of these leftists. Why is it a bigger tragedy when one negro is killed by a white man than when five whites are sexually assaulted and executed by negro brothers? > [@](#): > > OK, but let’s be clear about it – the title of this thread would seem to suggest otherwise. FYI, the moderator changed the title of the thread. > [@](#): > > I rather suspect that many people are interested in your opinions only to the extent that they purport to be those of the WN movement. To the extent that they represent those of one anonymous woman in Canada they are of far less significance. I am the only one who is not banned at the moment. It’s the moderators on this board who banned the rest. If you have a problem that I am a lone woman having a discussion and not representing the entire spectrum of views, take issue with the moderators who banned the rest, not me. > [@](#): > > Please be more specific. Would your deportation order specify all Jews? How would you sort out the “supporters” from the non-supporters? Would you seize all their assets? It’s a possibility that a few Jews who gave up all tribal loyalty and assimilated could stay. I would not seize _all_ their assets. They could take a certain amount to Israel 😉 > [@](#): > > What about people of Irish descent who attempt to shape foreign policy with regards to Ireland? Dual loyalists? And what do you think of the German-American Bund, which worked mightily to influence the US in favor of Germany in the 30’s and early 40’s. Should all these dual-loyalists have been shipped over to Germany? There is no current problem with Irish and German groups. I don’t know how I would go back in time to ship the Bund of the 30’s and 40’s to Germany. I’m a WN, not a time traveler LoL. > [@](#): > > But you’ve not explained what that has to do with White culture. Unless you can somehow show that gays are a result of some non-White influence, I don’t see the connection. Why would a movement that doesn’t respect the actions of “minority groups” who lobby for fictitious “rights” respect a movement based on a sexual deviation who follows the exact same pattern? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/69 "2002-10-20T20:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sionnach_ > It’s very clear that whites are targetted by these negro criminals. During the crimes, one of the negroes even asked the white women questions like “Do you like black men?” “Have you ever been with a black man?” I would like an answer by some of these leftists. Once more, with feeling: Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/70 "2002-10-20T20:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Merciful heavens. The kindest thing anyone said there was that homosexuality is a genetic defect. I won’t make the fallacy (not to mention the moral sin) of judging you by their words, but I see no dissent whatsoever with respect to, yet again, another claim of superiority. My brain is normal. Yours is defective. Homosexuality is a sexual deviation. Men and women have a biological instinct to mate for the purpose of having offspring. That biological instinct in homosexuals has been distorted. We don’t know yet _why_, but it’s definatly a deviation like a number of other fetishes. I expect soon for some “Animal Lovers” to demand equal rights and recognition for “inter-species love.” > [@](#): > > At any rate, I now have a new question. You mention Christianity as one of the unifying points of western culture. Do the White Nationalists understand that Jesus was a Jew? Or do they maintain that He and His disciples were all Caucasian, and that the New Testament is a Jewish fabrication? There are different opinions on the subject of religion, but no one can deny that Christianity has been a major influence and entrenched tradition in the West. As for the “Christianity is Jewish” arguement, Christianity is very different than Judaism. Jews reject Christ and think he’s boiling in hell in a pot of excrement. > [@](#): > > Second, what what is the evidence that the victims were targeted because they were white? It’s quite clear that James Byrd was singled out and killed because he was a black man (“negro” is quite archaic, you know) and the killers hated black people. Where is the evidence that these five white people of whom you speak were singled out because they were white and the killers hated white people? I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but if you’re going to show something was a “hate crime,” that’s what you’ve got to show. > **[August 2002 - American Renaissance](https://www.amren.com/archives/back-issues/august-2002/)** > > American Renaissance magazine Vol. 13, No. 8 August 2002 CONTENTS The Wichita Massacre A Chronicle of Capitulation Matt Bruno Wins the Dashes Racial Preferences Survive in Michigan O Tempora, O Mores! Letters from Readers COVER STORY The Wichita... If white brothers did this to five negros, the outrage would never end. > [@](#): > > OK, then. However, that sort of makes all the complaints we’ve been hearing the last few days from the White Nationalists about “censorship” ring a little hollow. I’m sorry if you don’t know the difference between free and open debate and organized treason. The Zionist lobbies don’t care about any country but Israel, nor do they care about open debate. They’ve stifled the discussion so much that it’s basically career suicide to not support Israel. Anyone who claims that it’s “anti-semitic” to say that the we should support our own country’s interest over Israel’s interest should pack up for Tel Aviv. B’nai Brith can take a hike. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/71 "2002-10-20T21:00:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > **One major common link between the strict WN and the more Paleoconservative positions like myself, is that we all completely oppose third world immigration and Zionist control of government/media.** > [@](#): > > **Media monopolies would be broken up. One Jewish family owns most of the media where I live[…]** It seems to me that if Zionists control the majority of anything, that represents a weakness on the part of non-Zionists. Meaning, of course, that any claims of non-Zionist superiority are highly suspect. Maybe Zionists control these things, if, indeed, they do, because they have the capacity to do so, and the so-called “White Nationalists” don’t. Which means the entire movement smacks of nothing more than sour grapes. If you can’t outcompete them, resort to force and violence. Because, you know, that’s _way_ more enlightened. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/72 "2002-10-20T21:01:27Z")
Sionnach wrote: > [@](#): > > It’s a possibility that a few Jews who gave up all tribal loyalty and assimilated could stay. I would not seize all their assets. They could take a certain amount to Israel Do you honestly believe that _every_ Jew has stolen something from you? I’m assuming here that you would not seize assets that do not belong to you. If so, how is it that you ask that everyone here consider you on your own merits, irrespective of the views or activities of other White Nationalists, while you are unwilling to afford to millions of people the exact same courtesy? Also, do you include converted white Jews in your, whatever it is — seperatism, supremacy, obsession… you tell me? That is, is it the Jewish _religion_ that offends you or descendents of the Israelites? > [@](#): > > Homosexuality is a sexual deviation. So is a heterosexual foot fetish. So is an obsessive attraction to fat people of the opposite sex. In fact, so is celibacy. But deviation from a norm does not imply any defect. Otherwise, you yourself suffer from all sorts of defects unless you are the perfectly average person. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/73 "2002-10-20T21:08:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > Read the FAQ. That’s the common movement. Besides the FAQ, all movements have different factions and individuals with different degrees of intensity. I read the FAQ. But I don’t think you can declare that to be the common movement, if a substantial percentage of the members are not of that persuasion. In particular, many of the moderators of the SF MB appear to be far more extreme than the FAQ – as I understand it, these are appointed by Don Black himself. > [@](#): > > The media tries to pigeonhole us into some kind of perfectly homogenous movement that wants to beat up any dissenters. That’s hogwash. I don’t know that the media is trying to pigeonhole you, or even cares that much about you at all. The perception I get from the media is that there are all sorts of vicious hate-filled bigots out there. This is easily verified by a visit to the SF website. What one also sees on such visits is that there are people who purport to be less vicious and less hate-filled, but who nonetheless regard the vicious hate-filled ones as fine people and fellow kampfers. Which is a bit suspicious, so I ask about it. No answer. > [@](#): > > By “right-wing”, I suppose you mean neoconservatives. Those creatures are merely Zionists with a Republican mask. Supporting a foreign nation over your own has nothing to do with conservatism. Quite the opposite. I post on a couple right-wing forums that despise Israel as much as Stormfront. No decent right-winger would support handing over taxpayer money to foreigners. When I say “right-wing” I mean what is commonly referred to as right-wing. I am not creating my own definitions here, as you appear to be doing. It might be a good idea to use commonly used terminology, so as to be less confusing. (Your last sentence here is circular – of the “no true Scotsman” variety). > [@](#): > > I am the only one who is not banned at the moment. It’s the moderators on this board who banned the rest. If you have a problem that I am a lone woman having a discussion and not representing the entire spectrum of views, take issue with the moderators who banned the rest, not me. I have no problem with the moderators, or even with you. I have a problem to the extent that you purport to defend WN while defending a watered down version. To the extent that you are clear that you are not defending WN, I don’t have much of a problem with regards to this. Other than the guilt by association matter, which you’ve persistently declined to address. > [@](#): > > It’s a possibility that a few Jews who gave up all tribal loyalty and assimilated could stay. If you could humor me a bit here, what percentage of Jews do you envision staying, based on your criteria and your view of the Jewish population today? > [@](#): > > I would not seize _all_ their assets. They could take a certain amount to Israel 😉 You are too kind. You’ve not answered my other question – perhaps you’ve overlooked it. I shall repost: can you tell me how this would achieve your purported goals of preserving white culture? This (I am treating the US and Canada the same here) would remain a country with a large minority population. How do you escape their influence? > [@](#): > > There is no current problem with Irish and German groups. I am pretty sure Irish groups in the US are a significant factor with regards to US policy towards the IRA. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how I would go back in time to ship the Bund of the 30’s and 40’s to Germany. I’m a WN, not a time traveler LoL. Harharhar. Now that is funny. Or jewspeak sarcasm. Either way, you are evading the question. Which is, whether you consider that to have been an example of dual-loyalty, and do you feel that they should have been shipped back to Germany. > [@](#): > > Why would a movement that doesn’t respect the actions of “minority groups” who lobby for fictitious “rights” respect a movement based on a sexual deviation who follows the exact same pattern? Because your ostensible reason for not respecting actions of “minority groups” has nothing to do with their manner of lobbying – supposedly it’s all about preserving the White heritage and culture which are under attack. You appear to be stretching here. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/74 "2002-10-20T21:09:29Z")
Actually, S-man, Jews don’t much of anything about Christ - he’s part of your religion, not ours; besides, Judaism doesn’t have a hell. As for the rest of your… opinions, well, one reason that American Jews support my country is that the U.S. has people like you in it. After all, you might some day be in charge, and then where will they go? Think of Zionism as an investment for an uncertan future. Just don’t claim that it’s somehow “causing” the hatred of Jews - a certain kind of people was hating us back when they were still painting their faces with woad and greasing their hair with bear fat. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/75 "2002-10-20T21:45:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > [http://www.amren.com/wichita/index.htm](http://www.amren.com/wichita/index.htm) Your cite offers not even one tiny shred of evidence that the Carr brothers hated white people and targeted their victims _because_ they were white. All it does is offer speculation that, _Hey, they were black guys and they killed white folks, isn’t that a hate crime?_ It even concedes that one of the Carrs had a white girlfriend, which is pretty well inconsistent with hatred of white people. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/76 "2002-10-20T21:56:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Your cite offers not even one tiny shred of evidence that the Carr brothers hated white people and targeted their victims \*\* Whether or not it was legally a “hate crime,” the victims are just as dead. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/77 "2002-10-20T22:00:07Z")
Yes, and your cat’s breath smells like cat food. Try to stay on point. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/78 "2002-10-20T22:12:11Z")
—What is so odd about a will? Get a will and live with your partner.— First of all, I don’t have to: I can legally marry my partner. But second of all, if gay people have to do it through wills (and there are many reaosns that they can’t do the sorts of things via a will that they can do via marriage: because they don’t convey the same legal rights), then why don’t straight people. Your response suggests a double standard. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/79 "2002-10-20T22:19:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Whether or not it was legally a “hate crime,” the victims are just as dead. To clarify **minty** ’s point with regards to this: what you are saying is that whether something is a hate crime is insignificant. What we are discussing is whether there is a “double standard” at play in not making as big a deal about this crime as about the Byrd death. And to the extent that this difference is merely a product of the fact that one was not a hate crime, there is no evidence of a double standard. You may disagree with the idea of making a big deal over hate crimes, but the reality is that this is done, and the difference in coverage was the result of this reality. Not the result of the difference in the race of the perpetrators and victims. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/80 "2002-10-20T22:19:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sorry if you don’t know the difference between free and open debate and organized treason. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” – The Constitution of the United States of America. Nothing in there about these provisions not applying to “Zionists” or “Negroes”. In fact, a bit further on we come to: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” Why is supporting a particular foreign policy stance “treason” and outside the bounds of free and open debate, but seeking to undermine the fundamental constitutional principles of this country is just peachy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011.md?page=5)