# White Nationalism: Continued debate from BBQ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011 "2002-10-19T20:58:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/161 "2002-10-21T21:58:11Z")
BTW, I see that this sentence made it out missing a phrase ( **bolded** ) that I had originally typed: (And many of those causes have to do with the way that they **perceive that they** have been mistreated by some citizens.) It apparently got lost when I rearranged the paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/162 "2002-10-21T23:18:57Z")
Sionnach said: > [@](#): > > David, I’m not answering your “valid question” because you have none. Well, at least you’ve switched tactics from tapdancing and lying about not answering it to forthrightly admitting that you’re not going to answer it. (Now I just need to get Libertarian to recognize that you’ve admitted it.) No matter at this point. At the time, I merely wanted to point out how you were joyfully using bigoted language, and later to point out that you were ignoring me pointing this out, but what you’ve said (and further ignored) since then has more than shown everybody just where you stand. I do find it a bit amusing that Libertarian actually thought there could be a rational debate with a person like you, though. Ah well, he must just be too much of an optimist. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/163 "2002-10-21T23:25:16Z")
Yes, she has rather gone from (1) purporting to debate to (2) ignoring people’s questions to (3) ignoring detailed refutations of her claims. Now she’s apparently reduced to (4) simple assertions that she doesn’t like those things or people. Ah well, the deflation of irrational beliefs is the risk you take around here. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/164 "2002-10-21T23:30:33Z")
Jeez, it’s like “debating” with a creationist! Let’s face it, when you don’t have a rational basis for your thoughts and beliefs, and you are confronted with rational objections, you have two choices: Recognize that your belief system is faulty and completely change, or reject the rational discussion. Guess which one most irrational people (like white supremacists/nationalists/whatever they want to call themselves and creationists) take… ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/165 "2002-10-21T23:32:22Z")
Or maybe rational discussion is what they _really_ mean by “jewspeak”… ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/166 "2002-10-21T23:40:47Z")
What is this “rational discussion” of which you jewspeak? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/167 "2002-10-21T23:47:08Z")
minty green said: > [@](#): > > He has a point, David. (Referring, I presume, to Libertarian’s mention of ads on RealityNewsOnline.) Hey, a guy’s gotta make a buck. But that’s another debate. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/168 "2002-10-21T23:50:53Z")
minty green said: > [@](#): > > What is this “rational discussion” of which you jewspeak? Allow me to explain in the negative: Read every one of Sionnach’s posts. You see what’s missing? That would be “rational disscussion.” ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/169 "2002-10-21T23:53:12Z")
Are floating popups part of the Jewish media conspiracy? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/170 "2002-10-22T00:02:36Z")
> [@](#): > > fewer than 5 million spoke English poorly, and fewer than 2 million people spoke no English. 2 million out of 230 million is hardly a number that needs a law to correct it. I would include the 5 million also as falling under this law. Try explaining some of the housing tax propositions that are on the ballot here to someone who only speaks poor english. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/171 "2002-10-22T00:11:20Z")
Well, that was everyone over age 5, so some of them wouldn’t be voting, soon, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/172 "2002-10-22T00:11:44Z")
minty green asked: > [@](#): > > Are floating popups part of the Jewish media conspiracy? Dammit! You’ve found us out! Actually, those float because they need to attract your attention so they can beam secret messages directly into your brain via your eyes. Good thing Sionnach is ignoring what we post now, so she can’t discover The Truth. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/173 "2002-10-22T00:20:44Z")
Hmmm, there are no popups at the Straight Dope, are there? And Cecil was raised Catholic, right? That must mean the SDMB is not part of the Jewish media conspiracy. What a relief! Wait a second . . . just what is this revenue-raising plan we’ve been hearing about, anyway? [sub]::Looks at **DavidB** suspiciously::[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/174 "2002-10-22T00:43:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > I’m afraid that you’re going to have to define multi-culturalism for me. I would define it as excessive celebration and accommodation of other cultures. The thinking is that to the extent that immigrants are _expected_ to lose the old culture they be more motivated to do so, and to the extent that the old culture is celebrated and accommodated, they will not. Any immigrant who comes to America would prefer – all things being equal – to keep as much of his old ways and language as possible, for himself and his children. The motivation to not do this is the desire to “fit in” to the new country, and the desire to “make it”. Excessive celebration and accommodation take away some of this incentive. Which is not to say that a person should not have the right to speak whatever language or keep whatever customs he wants. The question is what the government should set as public policy. I can’t say for sure that there has indeed been an increased tendency to resist assimilation. Only that the trend towards multi-culturalism would tend to make this more likely. (For a previous discussion of this issue, see: Diversity or Balkanization?) > [@](#): > > I have still never heard a single argument for making an official language that actually intended to improve the quality of U.S. life. I’m not sure what he exact impact would be of making English the official language – possibly purely symbolic. To the extent that it ties in with multi-culturalism as described above, I would be inclined to support it. But I don’t have strong feelings about it. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/175 "2002-10-22T00:47:30Z")
There are no pop-ups _that you know of_. We’ve actually been experimenting with our new stealth pop-up technology. As for revenue-raising. Well, if you find yourself having an urge to send in checks to “SDMB,” you’ll understand all… ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/176 "2002-10-22T00:52:36Z")
IzzyR said: > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what he exact impact would be of making English the official language – possibly purely symbolic. As I understand it, it would mean that all government documents would be in English. So, for example, when you go to get a driver’s license, you would have to take the test in English and wouldn’t have an option to take it in Spanish or whatever other language you happen to speak. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/177 "2002-10-22T01:04:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*There are no pop-ups _that you know of_. We’ve actually been experimenting with our new stealth pop-up technology. \*\* Hey now, let me work this out. Since the Jews are the ones sending me these pop-ups, does that mean if I close them out (the pop-ups, not the Jews), I’m acting in an anti-semitic fashion? Damn Jews. All these Catch-22s. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/178 "2002-10-22T01:05:22Z")
Just a few points re my opinion of the preceeding: - Izzy asked the best questions (most of which still remain unanswered). Don’t get me wrong, all the questions asked were good but I think with this subject there is a risk you can get too bogged down in detail (about genetics and crime statistics etc). You don’t need to get bogged down in detail you can just focus on the bigger picture. When I have argued with these people I’ve found you can beat them quite easily just by focusing on the big picture, you don’t need to get into a cite-war. - I agree with DavidB over Libertarian. “Jewspeak” seems to mean anyone who puts up a “clever” argument. I don’t think you need to rely on “clever” arguments to defeat this bunch. You can beat them purely on common-sense (big picture) arguments. David was right to point out the seemingly casual way in which sionnich (or however you spell it) dismisses the use of the word “Jewspeak”. As though it’s just a little joke and not to be taken too seriously. Sionnich’s attitude seems to be “Hey, I don’t use it much myself” but the fact she hangs out with people who do use it casually means she implicitly legitimates it’s use. The word “Jewspeak” is despicable on so many levels it’s hard to know where to begin (and I’m not even Jewish). It implies there is one single unified Jewish mind, that all Jews think alike (like the borg, maybe). There’s a thousand arguments against using the word “Jewspeak”, I can’t be bothered going through all of them. Even if I were a WN I wouldn’t use the term - or hang around with people who did. Sionnich wouldn’t appreciate us saying “WNspeak”, lumping them all together. That’s kinda the same as “Jewspeak” - you can’t lump people together. I sometimes think these people don’t realise that there’s only 14 million Jews left in the world, and 5 million of them are in Israel, and Hitler killed 6 million (or thereabouts, even WNs agree that he killed _some_ at least). In any case there’s only 14 million now. As against 1 billion muslims and 2 billion christians. Jews are almost a dying religion. They should be honoured as the precursors of both Christianity and Islam, they should be nurtured and protected. It would be a catastrophe if Jews were to die out altogether from the world. They have been shat on for 4000 years by various other groups. I can’t understand the mentality of people who still want to shit on them today despite the fact there’s hardly any of them left. - I tried arguing sensibly over on SF but I got so many bullshit posts in the thread with people saying “Jews, niggers, faggots” that I couldn’t be bothered. It’s like they are all 12 years old (or extremely thick). - Guin noted that these people are scary. They don’t scare me, I will argue with anyone about anything but only if I deem them capable of arguing in an adult manner. The people at SF are an embarrasment to fascist arguments - I could put up better arguments than they did in favour of their position. I gave up over there because they were shit not because they were good (or scary). - I keep thinking of them as “Stormforce” not “stormfront”. Stormforce would be a way better name. It conjures up images of a trashy novel in which the hero (maybe called Jack Keegan) is an ex-special forces, no-nonsense kind of guy. He doesn’t play by the rules but he gets results. He used to have a wife but she died in mysterious circumstances and now he’s just trying to get even with the world. He plays by his terms. Stormfront just sounds like a weather broadcast. It’s a really dull name. Hey, sionnich, forget all the nazi stuff, you should get them to change their name. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/179 "2002-10-22T01:06:11Z")
**David B** , Well I would be in favor of that. But it sounds like Tom has no problem with that as well - see his post of 4:34 (EST). Obviously, I would not be in favor of his other suggestions, e.g. ordering English only to be spoken in stores. I would let private people and businesses do what they want. Again, it’s only a matter of public policy. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011/180 "2002-10-22T01:13:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t say for sure that there has indeed been an increased tendency to resist assimilation. Only that the trend towards multi-culturalism would tend to make this more likely. I still am not sure where multi-culturalism is anything more than some nice-feeling words about acceptance. I certainly have not encountered any government agency telling people to hang onto their old ways and to refuse to assimilate. My own experiences echo some of the comments made on [your linked thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=73506): the German side of my family immigrated in the 1850s and we still share the story of the matriarch that declared “No more Cherman! Ve speak English in dis house!” sometime around 1900. I had friends throughout the Detroit area whose immigrant grandparents spoke almost exclusively Polish or Lithuanian or Italian in the late 1960s, despite the fact that their parents had arrived before the immigration gates slammed shut in 1920. (And, in many cases, the grandparents I met remained suspicious of the “American” culture, sometimes because of treatment they had received during the Palmer Raids and after, sometimes simply because they did not feel comfortable outside their own culture, but they paid their taxes, sent their kids to Americanized schools, and generally behaved as good citizens.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-continued-debate-from-bbq/133011.md?page=10)