# White Nationalism, Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522 "2002-10-23T14:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/261 "2002-10-27T22:18:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Where does this occur? Where are the non-assimilated Russian communities in America who can’t learn English? Cleveland, for one. (And it is not “can’t learn”; it is “haven’t yet learned”–the same as for other immigrant groups.) And you are demonstrating ignorance when you rail against bi-lingual education: the California School Board dismantled the program after a 1998 referendum to do away with it that received massive support from the Hispanic community. > [@](#): > > This organization includes “Jew” as white. I wouldn’t be surprised. How do you distinguish between Jewish and “white.” What test will distinguish them? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/262 "2002-10-27T22:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Where does this occur? Where are the non-assimilated Russian communities in America who can’t learn English? Where I live, for one. Among many groups, Newark has a large population of Russians, Ukranians, and Poles. Many of them are poor and unassimilated because they just arrived here. But they are doing it, just like everyone else. Briton Beach in NYC is another place. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/263 "2002-10-27T22:27:25Z")
Really. Sionnach will not admit defeat. She just will not do that. You guys need to accept and learn this. You can scream foul as much as you want. You can point to the logical fallacies until time itself stops. You can decry her cites and foundations as the lowest of bias crap until you are blue from the effort. Yet she will not stop. I’m getting tired if repeating this. Anyone that knows me from other debates would know that I am the first one to call cites, present my own cites, defeat logical fallacies and call people on their poor rhetoric. Likewise I will gladly admit when I get carried away or err in the same ways. You won’t find me doing that in this thread- none of it. Why? Simply for the reasons I have mentioned before and that more and more of you are starting to take into your posts. It’s a mental illness. It’s goddamned pathological. It’s a complete refusal to even try to see reality for what it is. It’s got names. Paranoia, anger issues, delusions, inferiority problems, sociopathic, psychopathic – call it what you will. I’m not one to like psychology and all the vagueness that it entails, but when it comes to these guys I have to admit that at least the simple diagnosis that something is desperately amiss is so obvious that you need not kiss Freud’s nicotine and psychoanalysis crap stinking departed ass to understand that. Again on that note: **Sionnach** , you keep on saying; > [@](#): > > I insist on not being called a “supremacist” and “neo-nazi” because I’m not one. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment and pretend that you are neither mad nor a neo-Nazi (which are not mutually exclusive concepts rather the contrary, but still). Just answer these questions: [ol][li]The Jews, are they involved in any conspiracies?[/li] [li]The Jews, are they contaminating the white race from the inside?[/li] [li]The white race is equal to who exactly?[/li] [li]Do you believe in racially pure nations?[/li] [li]Do you believe that self-determination should be granted races, or should it only be granted political unities called states where many races live?[/li] [li]Is there an ongoing struggle between the races that is motivated by the natural racial differences?[/li] [li]Are certain races inferior in any way?[/li] [li]What is the chief goal of the white race?[/li] [li]If races unite into racially pure nations, will this create a natural harmony that will solve many societal problems like decreasing crime to acceptable levels?[/li] [li]Should people that do not belong to the dominant race in a territorial nation be let alone and live there, or should they be deported into ‘their own nation’?[/li] [li]What about the Jews? Do we let them stay where they are or should the majority of them be moved to somewhere? If so, where to?[/ol]Answer those questions and I am certain that most people will feel more comfortable as to the name calling.[/li] Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/264 "2002-10-28T07:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > **Why should I provide evidence for something I didn’t say? I never said that the decline was in “wealth” (wealth is probably the only thing that keeps everyone from completely going at each other’s throats even though job and financial security is far down), and I never said the decline was only a result of an increase in non-whites.** Because you _did_ say it. Either that, or you are freely admitting that you didn’t answer the question. Let’s recap, shall we? You said: > [@](#): > > Wow, that sure convinced me that multiculturalism works and will lead to peace, and prosperous strong nations! Note your choice of the word “prosperous” there. I said: > [@](#): > > Show me a stronger, more prosperous nation than the U.S. Go on. I dare ya. You responded: > [@](#): > > Before the 1960’s, it ranged from 85% white to 80% white with the only big “minority” being blacks. Now it’s on the decline. Please note that this was your **direct response** to my challenge. So, if you didn’t say the propsperity of the U.S. is on the decline, and that it has nothing to do with an increase in immigration, please explain the relevance of your “1960s” statistics. Also, you said multiculturalism does not lead to prosperity. Prove it. I once again submit the U.S. as evidence against that position. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/265 "2002-10-28T07:55:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Where does this occur? Where are the non-assimilated Russian communities in America who can’t learn English? Lot of Russians in San Fran also. Don’t know how recent they are, but Russian is the third most common language i hear on the bus (behind Cantonese, followed by English, then Spanish fourth). I also see plenty of study guides for becoming a US citizen. I bet many white high schoolers would fail that test. > [@](#): > > **Sparc** – > Really. Sionnach will not admit defeat. She just will not do that. You guys need to accept and learn this. Yes, but if she quit, i’d have to find another thread to laugh at. Where is **SeethruArt** when you need him? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/266 "2002-10-28T10:34:04Z")
Actually, I think economic freedom, tempered by noncoercion, leads to prosperity. As to Sionnach’s unwillingness to admit defeat, it’s really nothing more than her overall psychosis. She has demonstrated that she has no comprehension of first order logic, that she really doesn’t understand White Nationalism, that she applies double standards in her judgments, and that there is no accounting for her deviation from the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/267 "2002-10-28T14:16:22Z")
Yeah, Sparc, I hear ya. But I was wondering that, too–“Why are we all still here?” And I went back and read over the thread, and I was mentally comparing this thread to other racism threads, and something Lib said way back on page 5 finally sank in: > [@](#): > > Me: Okay, why are we even bothering trying to talk to this person? > > Lib: Because she is wrong. In other debates with racists, when the thread deteriorates into the OP’s mere ranting after a few pages, people lose interest and drift away from the discussion–in other words, when the OP no longer has a POV that is simply, obviously “wrong”, a POV that is something that can be addressed. But the threads that keep going are the ones where the OP keeps coming back with actual cites and arguments that can be discussed, things that can be Googled. And, you know, as long as the OP keeps coming back with arguments and with links, I realized that we owe it to the Fight Against Ignorance to at least try to refute the arguments, and at least address the links, no matter how pointless or puerile they are. So, I’m still here, after all. But I’m wondering how long it’ll be before the OP can’t take it any more and starts merely ranting. ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/268 "2002-10-28T17:02:29Z")
Good Morning! > [@](#): > > According to the arguments you’ve put forth throughout this thread and others, this anti-white discrimination should be perfectly acceptable. Afterall, this is a community of people looking after its own interests. You should sympathize with their response seeing how you’ve expressed similar dismay over the “flooding” of your community with foreigners. If the majority of Hawaiians agree that it is okay to discriminate against whites (and I’m not saying they do), why shouldn’t the will of the majority take precedence over the whims of the minority? If the white folks don’t like it, they can go back to the mainland. Someone asked what I thought of Hawaii, so I gave the opinion of someone I have talked to. The implications are that places with a non-white majority are not nearly as tolerant as places with a white majority. Whites nowadays bend over backwards to prove that they are “tolerant” and “multicultural”, yet most non-whites know that this stuff is bullshit, so they advance their own self-interests and are as bigoted as they want to be, because this society doesn’t punish and condemn non-white bigots. This leads me to believe that when our nations are non-white majority, we will face a great deal of discrimination and violence directed towards us as whites. We think this should be prevented. > [@](#): > > You’re still not explaining the root of your position. How is western culture being destroyed? What aspects of this great and shining entity should be considered endangered? You’ve given short shrift to the one thing your platform hangs upon, and the longer you continue to wail about the destruction of something that is still left only vaguely defined, the more your credibility is drowned out by a noisy aura of paranoia. Declining birth rates in almost all western nations + rapid immigration from the third world. It’s very simple, yet none of you are able to grasp it because you are stuck in the dogma of “all cultures are equal and all cultures will assimilate” or “there is no unique culture of the west to preserve anyway… why not let it all go muslim or hindu?” > [@](#): > > Non-white crime? I’ve been trying my level best to give you the benefit of the doubt, honestly, but this right here is richer than rum cake. Why is “non-white crime” such a threat to you and not “white” crime? And perhaps this should have been asked first, but what in the hell is “white” crime anyways? In my world, all crime is bad because it threatens the well-being and the quality of life of society. It doesn’t matter if the man robbing me graduated cum laude from Yale and wears thousand-dollar worsted suits hand-stitched in Florence or if he is a high-school drop-out who has 6 half-sibling kids that he doesn’t give a penny to…if he’s taking money that doesn’t belong to him, he’s a fucking criminal. Black males make up 6% of the population, yet are responsible for half the crime and 43% of all rapes. That’s a very violent group, and I wouldn’t want myself, or my children to be living anywhere near an area made up of mostly blacks. > [@](#): > > (1) The standards by which you judge are arbitrary, and therefore weak. You refuse to consider individual cases among Jews and conflate all Jews with irrational Zionists, and yet you object that you are a unique individual among White Nationalists and ought not to be conflated with skinheads and other misfits. In this, your hypocrisy seems no different than that of the liberals you decry because you, like they, demand for yourself special rights and privileges. I do no such thing. I know that there are anti-Zionist Jews and “righteous Jews”. Why should this stop me from opposing the actions of 80% of the organized jewry out there? Why should the existance of a single good individual jew stop me from opposing the actions of groups like the ADL? I don’t insist on anything but to stop arguing with me as someone I am not. If you want to argue against a “neo-nazi” or a “supremacist”, find a neo-nazi or supremacist and argue with them. If I wanted to argue against the tactics of organized Jewry such as the ADL, I wouldn’t keep hecking one little jewboy about it after he’s already stated that he doesn’t like the ADL either. That’s pointless. > [@](#): > > (2) You insist that homosexuality is a genetic defect because homosexual behavior deviates from the norm, and in fact believe that that is the nicest thing that can be said about gays. And yet, you yourself are not average in every way and therefore deviate from many norms yourself. You are unwilling to admit that your own deviancies are attributable to a genetic defect. Your only response is to offer a red herring about flaunting sexuality in front of children. You do not ask whether people ought to demonstrate heterosexual cunnilingus or fellatio to children; therefore, your disingenuousness on this issue can only be deliberate. I insist no such thing about genetics. Come on Lib, I know you are intelligent and you could do a little better than this. I said that homosexuality is a sexual deviation. Are you denying this? How are my deviances a “genetic defect”? By differing in opinion from you? Need I remind you that a controversial opinion isn’t a genetic defect? Homosexuality is now being taught in some public schools to very young children. I’m very much against this. I don’t think any sexuality should be taught in school, IMHO. > [@](#): > > (3) Having squatted on land that your ancestors stole from mine by treachery and tyranny, you now presume that you have a right to declare yourself its sole steward and decide who will and will not occupy land within arbitrary borders that you have drawn. You further would steal the assets of those whom you deem criminals by your arbitrary standards, and assault their person in order to force them to leave. Unless you are threatening an assault, people can simply ignore you. But I’m willing to bet that you would enforce your tyranny with weapons. Every government does. Oh, blah. Here comes the stereotypical self-righteous indian line. Sir, your ancestors and many of the tribes around your ancestors always battled each other for land and resources. You expect me to believe the fairytale about indians all being in some peaceful pacifist utopia before the white man came? It’s a fairytale and nothing but. You guys had wars with each other and conquered each other through force. Some tribes practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism with their victims. It was the way of the world for thousands of years. Groups of people conquer others for land and resources. You guys happened to have all been conquered by people from a technologically advanced civilization. Too bad, so sad, but the winners have a right to do with the land whatever they wish. If this means getting rid of criminals and not allowing floods of others to come in so that their children can live in peace and prosperity, so be it. > [@](#): > > (4) You do not understand White Nationalism. You are making claims that are not reflected in your FAQ; therefore, either you or the FAQ author does not understand White Nationalism. Nowhere in your FAQ is there any mention of evicting people, nuking Israel, or seizing assets. In fact, few of your political fantasies appear there. When did I say I want to nuke Israel? I only said that I wouldn’t care if it were nuked to get a rise out of the ranting little jewish princess 😉 As for eviction, do you think WNs want to live in a nation with Zionists? Been there, done that. We don’t want them. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, the statistic that you parroted, “Black males make up only about 6% of the US population, they commit over half of all violent crimes and over 43% of all rapes,” is a logical fallacy. Nearly the exact same figures correlate to poverty. A wealthy man, even a Black one like OJ Simpson, likely will not go to prison for his crimes. A poor man almost certainly will. This is a bullshit parrot on your part. There are more impovershed whites in America than impovershed blacks. If impovershed whites had the same crime rate as the impovershed blacks, the crime rate in the US would be insanely high. [http://www.jabpage.com/facts/racestat/racestat11.html](http://www.jabpage.com/facts/racestat/racestat11.html) > [@](#): > > Your first cite doesn’t show that Jews brought organized crime to America. All it shows is that there was Jewish organized crime in America. _Arnold Rothstein was the founding father of American organized crime…"_ - Jewish Post of New York Were the Jews tooting their own horn? Maybe, maybe not. > [@](#): > > The Mr. Enrons of the world count on people like you to pardon and ignore their transgressions because they are not as “bad” as the crimes of the Mr. Non-White Lower-Class Thugs. You think they are on your team just because their skin is light and their hair is straight? How lucky of them to have such undeserving love and loyalty, when the only color they are devoted to is green. It’d be so interesting to see what your perception of “white” crime would be if you and your husband lived in Houston, Tx and suddenly found yourselves broke and jobless like thousands of people did earlier this year. I don’t think they are on my team at all just because they are white. Do you think that we think that every white liberal is on our team? We know that the white liberal and corporate elite is part of the worst enemy. However, I would still rather live near those white corporate criminals than a rapist or a murderer. I would rather be a victim of fraud by those white collar criminals than a victim of rape and murder by a black thug. > [@](#): > > But it IS voluntary. If you don’t like paying taxes, LEAVE THE FREAKIN’ COUNTRY. Taxes are in all the Western nations. Why should every white American/Canadian who doesn’t like how their tax money is spent leave? I thought we had a democratic republic going on. If most Americans and Canadians want the immigration flooding to stop, it should stop. Fair and simple. > [@](#): > > But this is neither here nor there because the same benefits granted to immigrants are the same benefits granted to US citizens. If you became poor, you would qualify for welfare too. No one is depriving you of anything. Nativeborn people of the country have more of a right to welfare than someone who just hops a border because it’s convenient. Why should someone who has lived somewhere their entire life half to pay for the welfare of someone who just shows up because they are attracted to the scent of money? > [@](#): > > And you are demonstrating ignorance when you rail against bi-lingual education: the California School Board dismantled the program after a 1998 referendum to do away with it that received massive support from the Hispanic community. Get back to me with that when mestizos are the vast majority of California. It’ll be like the French Quebec, but filthy. > [@](#): > > The Jews, are they involved in any conspiracies? Yup. Conspiracy is another word for dirty politics, and they play plenty dirty politics. > [@](#): > > The Jews, are they contaminating the white race from the inside? Read Culture of Critique, and you tell me. > [@](#): > > The white race is equal to who exactly? No one, because I don’t believe in “equality”. No human beings are equal, no races are equal, and no cultures are equal. > [@](#): > > Do you believe in racially pure nations? You mean like Israel wants to be? Why not? > [@](#): > > Do you believe that self-determination should be granted races, or should it only be granted political unities called states where many races live? Yes, I do believe that self-determination should be granted to all races and different cultural groups. > [@](#): > > Is there an ongoing struggle between the races that is motivated by the natural racial differences? Whether the difference is racial or cultural, there is definately a struggle. > [@](#): > > Are certain races inferior in any way? Every race has it’s weak point. > [@](#): > > What is the chief goal of the white race? I don’t know how you expect this question to be answered. Different people in the white race have different goals. As for WN’s, the chief goal is our own living space that won’t be flooded with non-whites as a safe place to raise our children and prosper in peace. > [@](#): > > If races unite into racially pure nations, will this create a natural harmony that will solve many societal problems like decreasing crime to acceptable levels? Let’s see…white Americans could get rid of 43% of all rapes and almost half of all violent crime by moving a fraction of the population into their own nation, or seceding to form their own. As for negros, they’ll probably continue doing what they always do, as can be shown by the butchery that goes on in Africa. That is none of my concern. Let them grow up on their own instead of expecting “whitey” to hold their hand and throw them money. > [@](#): > > Should people that do not belong to the dominant race in a territorial nation be let alone and live there, or should they be deported into ‘their own nation’? There is a difference of opinions on this, but my personal belief is that small amounts are acceptable, but that a strong demographic majority must be maintained. In white nations, a strong white majority must be maintained even if a few Asians are allowed to live in port cities. Ditto for everyone else in the world. Every country has the right to maintain a strong demographic majority to avoid ethnic rivalry and strife. > [@](#): > > What about the Jews? Do we let them stay where they are or should the majority of them be moved to somewhere? If so, where to? Israel or Mars. > [@](#): > > So, if you didn’t say the propsperity of the U.S. is on the decline, and that it has nothing to do with an increase in immigration, please explain the relevance of your “1960s” statistics. > > Also, you said multiculturalism does not lead to prosperity. Prove it. I once again submit the U.S. as evidence against that position. High doses of immigration are a short term pill. In the long term, it’s doomed to failure. Already, wages have spiraled downward and job security is a thing of the past for most. Right now, everything is still propped up on the system that was built by whites. America is not egalitarian, even though that’s being pressed for most vigorously. White people are still the majority and are still the ones putting most of the tax money in. Third world immigration has only been coming in since 1965. Let’s see how well the US “prospers” a few decades from now when whites are a minority and mestizos the majority 🙂 > [@](#): > > Actually, I think economic freedom, tempered by noncoercion, leads to prosperity. As a Libertarian, do you support the current immigration floods? Taking my tax dollars to prop up programs for blacks and immigrants is coercion. The mestizos pouring into the US are all either democratic voting, or they support the neoconservative “compassionate” conservatism which supports taxation for social programs. In other words, you’ll get more big government liberalism with your blessed non-white majority. Whites are the voting block in the US that most want to scale back government. This is why American Libertarians who are pro-immigration crack me up. They are basically slitting their own throat. In the name of non-statism, they support flooding their country with people that love the state and will vote pro-State, thus dooming themselves to a future where they will never gain enough support to make any difference in an election. When there is increasing ethnic strife and rivalry, who do you think it lying in wait to “fix things”? Big government. Who supports immigration? It’s not the people, it’s Big Government. At least the paleo-libertarians get it. I’ll leave with this statement from an article, since this thread is beginning to bore me. We’re just going back and forth and no one has convinced me why multiculturalism is a great thing. \*"The real extremism lies with the pro-immigration crowd that denies the right of states and local governments to control immigration into their own communities, and **thus denies that traditional American institutions, even when influenced by a reasonable number of immigrants, are anything worth preserving.** Being the grandson of Mexican immigrants myself, I can sympathize with those who want to escape the inequality and poverty of Latin America. However, **simply turning the United States into part of Latin America is not going to solve the problem. The unique institutions of the United States are what makes it such a draw to immigrants. If want are to be a true help to immigrants, we must be sure that our society is preserved, so that in a generation it will continue to offer the promise of a free society and not become little more than a clone of the societies that these immigrants are trying to escape in the first place.** \* > **[Stop the Flood of Immigrants - LewRockwell](https://www.lewrockwell.com/2001/08/ryan-mcmaken/stop-the-flood-of-immigrants/)** > > Last Week, when a House Bill was introduced restricting immigration to around 300,000 immigrants per year, the bill was immediately denounced as "racist" by pro-immigration activists. The bill sponsor, a Republican from Colorado (a state heavily... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/269 "2002-10-28T17:37:44Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a bullshit parrot on your part. There are more impovershed whites in America than impovershed blacks. If impovershed whites had the same crime rate as the impovershed blacks, the crime rate in the US would be insanely high. You are deliberately omitting the part of the equation that addresses population density. That is simply dishonest. > [@](#): > > We’re just going back and forth and no one has convinced me why multiculturalism is a great thing. And since you have based your impressions of gut feelings backed up by poorly supported partial statistics and badly written revisionist history, no one ever will. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/270 "2002-10-28T19:41:05Z")
Hah! It’s fun to take quotes out of context and use them to prove whatever you want, innit? > [@](#): > > **Arnold Rothstein was the founding father of American organized crime…" - Jewish Post of New York** Uh huh. :rolleyes: Here’s the actual article. [http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0404/jpn0404a.htm](http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0404/jpn0404a.htm) > [@](#): > > The Jewish Gangsters in America > > By: Gad Nahshon > > Arnold Rothstein was the founding father of American organized crime. Ah ha! Jew Haters of the World, sit up and take note! By golly, it sure does say that! Oh, but…read the rest of the article, maybe? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > …A young writer, Rich Cohen (see photo), decided to expose the role of these Jews in the history of organized crime in America. But he also illuminated these Jews in a sort of romantic-nostalgic light. > > Cohen is an excellent writer and a superb story teller. He conducted research of his own and produced a fascinating account of the life of these criminal Jews. His book: “Tough Jews, Fathers, Sons and Gangsters” (Simon and Schuster, 1998, New York) will stir debate about the “contribution” of Jews to America. It’s a friggin’ book review. [insert emoticon for extreme disgust] He’s just _summarizing_ what’s in Cohen’s book. The only person who thinks that Arnold Rothstein was the “founding father of American organized crime” is Rich Cohen. Not the Jewish _Post_. Not even Gad Nahshon. And then there’s this, from towards the end of the book review, which of course you ignored because it didn’t prove your point. > [@](#): > > Cohen does not have a background in criminal justice and he ignored the famous book by Jenna Weismann Joselit: “Our Gang” (1900-1940). So we need more material to understand the unique characteristics of “Jewish crime”. Thus, apparently the only person here who thinks that Arnold Rothstein was the “founding father of American organized crime” is a _Rolling Stone_ contributing editor named Rich Cohen, and his book is a romanticized, and thus probably-not-terribly-accurate one. Another reviewer speaks. [http://www.chron.com/cgi-bin/auth/story/content/chronicle/ae/books/9798/04/19/toughjews.html](http://www.chron.com/cgi-bin/auth/story/content/chronicle/ae/books/9798/04/19/toughjews.html) > [@](#): > > The problem with Tough Jews is that Cohen is lost when he wanders from the old neighborhoods. Despite Cohen’s fascination with the now-vanished Jewish underworld, he really hasn’t done much research on it. > > Albert Fried’s admirable _Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America_ and Burton Turkus and Sid Feder’s _Murder, Inc: The Story of the Syndicate_ seem to be his major texts, after which he relies much too heavily on third-hand sources such as _The Mafia Encyclopedia_ and _The World Encyclopedia of Organized Crime_ and, worse, Walter Winchell’s autobiography _Things That Happened to Me – And Me to Them_, books that have been recycling nonsense about the Mafia and organized crime for decades. (Inexplicably, E.L. Doctorow’s novel about Dutch Schultz, _Billy Bathgate_, is listed in the bibliography, along with Paul Sann’s _Kill the Dutchman_, the book that served as Doctorow’s source.) > > \< snip \> > > Tough Jews is an intriguing idea that starts out well and then comes apart when the author stretches his material too thin. Short on facts, Cohen revives a bad idea that should have died with the pulp nonfiction of the '40s and '50s, namely inventing dialogue. Thus, your “cite” is useless and proves nothing. > [@](#): > > **Someone asked what I thought of Hawaii, so I gave the opinion of someone I have talked to.** Um, hanh? [does double take] Someone asked you what you thought, so you told him what someone else thought? ROFLMAO! Thank you for proving what we already suspected–that you are incapable of thinking for yourself. > [@](#): > > \*\*this thread is beginning to bore me. \*\* Me, too. And can I get an “amen”? > [@](#): > > \*\*We’re just going back and forth and no one has convinced me why multiculturalism is a great thing. \*\* Yeah, and did you notice how you’ve failed to convince us that multiculturalism is a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/271 "2002-10-28T21:51:01Z")
_sigh_ My head hurts. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > \*\*Good Morning! > > Someone asked what I thought of Hawaii, so I gave the opinion of someone I have talked to. The implications are that places with a non-white majority are not nearly as tolerant as places with a white majority. Whites nowadays bend over backwards to prove that they are “tolerant” and “multicultural”, yet most non-whites know that this stuff is bullshit, so they advance their own self-interests and are as bigoted as they want to be, because this society doesn’t punish and condemn non-white bigots. This leads me to believe that when our nations are non-white majority, we will face a great deal of discrimination and violence directed towards us as whites. We think this should be prevented. > > \*\* So whites are allowed to hold your views on nationalism but non-whites are not? Shouldn’t you be supporting the struggle of nationalists in every area? Why or why not? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Declining birth rates in almost all western nations + rapid immigration from the third world. It’s very simple, yet none of you are able to grasp it because you are stuck in the dogma of “all cultures are equal and all cultures will assimilate” or “there is no unique culture of the west to preserve anyway… why not let it all go muslim or hindu?” > \*\* I’m attempting to see a problem in this dogma, but it’s escaping me. Cultures change and assimilate all the time. Victorian Europe is gone forever. Pre-Columbus America is gone forever. 1950s America is gone forever. The only constant is change. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Black males make up 6% of the population, yet are responsible for half the crime and 43% of all rapes. That’s a very violent group, and I wouldn’t want myself, or my children to be living anywhere near an area made up of mostly blacks. > \*\* Let us consider ultimate and proximate causes. What could be proximate causes of this? 1. A higher rate of drug use in the African-American population 2. A higher rate of poverty in the African-American population 3. Policies such as racial profiling that ensured that more African-Americans get caught 4. Unjust convictions What are ultimate causes of this? Perhaps a continuing legacy of slavery and oppression on every concievable level? Or maybe it’s the white blood that polluted most descendents of slaves :D. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I do no such thing. I know that there are anti-Zionist Jews and “righteous Jews”. Why should this stop me from opposing the actions of 80% of the organized jewry out there? Why should the existance of a single good individual jew stop me from opposing the actions of groups like the ADL? > \*\* There is a difference between opposing actions and opposing identity. Your posts to date suggest that you oppose them not only because of their actions, but simply because they are Jewish. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t insist on anything but to stop arguing with me as someone I am not. If you want to argue against a “neo-nazi” or a “supremacist”, find a neo-nazi or supremacist and argue with them. If I wanted to argue against the tactics of organized Jewry such as the ADL, I wouldn’t keep hecking one little jewboy about it after he’s already stated that he doesn’t like the ADL either. That’s pointless. > \*\* So if you don’t disagree with all Jews, then why do you feel that they all should be deported? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Oh, blah. Here comes the stereotypical self-righteous indian line. Sir, your ancestors and many of the tribes around your ancestors always battled each other for land and resources. You expect me to believe the fairytale about indians all being in some peaceful pacifist utopia before the white man came? It’s a fairytale and nothing but. You guys had wars with each other and conquered each other through force. Some tribes practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism with their victims. It was the way of the world for thousands of years. Groups of people conquer others for land and resources. You guys happened to have all been conquered by people from a technologically advanced civilization. Too bad, so sad, but the winners have a right to do with the land whatever they wish. If this means getting rid of criminals and not allowing floods of others to come in so that their children can live in peace and prosperity, so be it. > \*\* I could substitute “Europe” for “Indian” in that statement and create a compelling argument (from your pov) for Muslims to invade Europe. > [@](#): > > \*\* > When did I say I want to nuke Israel? I only said that I wouldn’t care if it were nuked to get a rise out of the ranting little jewish princess ;)\*\* Please refrain from doing this in the future; it confuses your arguments > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for eviction, do you think WNs want to live in a nation with Zionists? Been there, done that. We don’t want them. > \*\* Then why are you still in NA? Buy an island somewhere. > [@](#): > > \*\* > This is a bullshit parrot on your part. There are more impovershed whites in America than impovershed blacks. If impovershed whites had the same crime rate as the impovershed blacks, the crime rate in the US would be insanely high. > > \*\* I want to see a cite regarding urban black crime versus urban white crime. > [@](#): > > \*\* > _Arnold Rothstein was the founding father of American organized crime…"_ - Jewish Post of New York > > Were the Jews tooting their own horn? Maybe, maybe not. > \*\* We have established that there was Jewish organized crime in America. How is this fundamentally different from Italian organized crime and the original Irish organized crime? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t think they are on my team at all just because they are white. Do you think that we think that every white liberal is on our team? We know that the white liberal and corporate elite is part of the worst enemy. However, I would still rather live near those white corporate criminals than a rapist or a murderer. I would rather be a victim of fraud by those white collar criminals than a victim of rape and murder by a black thug. > \*\* Would a white thug be acceptable? What if you were defrauded by a white collar criminal who happened to be black? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Taxes are in all the Western nations. Why should every white American/Canadian who doesn’t like how their tax money is spent leave? I thought we had a democratic republic going on. If most Americans and Canadians want the immigration flooding to stop, it should stop. Fair and simple. > \*\* If a vast majority of Americans and Canadians want immigration to stop, why aren’t they voting against it? If your view is in the minority, you can either suck it up or leave. Claiming there is some kind of “silent majority” doesn’t make it so. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Nativeborn people of the country have more of a right to welfare than someone who just hops a border because it’s convenient. Why should someone who has lived somewhere their entire life half to pay for the welfare of someone who just shows up because they are attracted to the scent of money? > \*\* This directly contradicts your stand against welfare for blacks. And I don’t believe in 10 pages of debate you have shown any sort of statistics on the number or proportion of immigrants on welfare or the amount of money they cost the state vs. the amount of money they contribute to the state through taxes? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Get back to me with that when mestizos are the vast majority of California. It’ll be like the French Quebec, but filthy.\*\* I don’t understand your reference to French Quebec, especially since the Quebecois were there long before the English. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Yup. Conspiracy is another word for dirty politics, and they play plenty dirty politics. > \*\* Show that Jewish politicians use significantly more dirty politics than white politicians. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Read Culture of Critique, and you tell me. > \*\* Didn’t we establish long ago that this was not an acceptable source?? > [@](#): > > \*\* > No one, because I don’t believe in “equality”. No human beings are equal, no races are equal, and no cultures are equal. > \*\* Yet you systematically protest that you do not believe some cultures are inferior to others. If you replaced the word “equal” with “alike”, I would be with you all the way. However, as it is I would ask how you came to this conclusion and how you have concluded that white culture is superior and therefore must be preserved. If it is strong and superior, it won’t disappear. If not, it deserves to be extinguished in a darwinian fashion. Either way your position gets no support. > [@](#): > > \*\* > You mean like Israel wants to be? Why not? > \*\* Straw man. There are plenty of people that disagree with Israel’s policies regarding the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Yes, I do believe that self-determination should be granted to all races and different cultural groups. > \*\* You seem to think that cultural groups/races have some kind of hive mind that makes them all agree about everything. And if most white Americans have chosen to embrace multiculturalism, then shouldn’t you go along with the wishes of the group? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Whether the difference is racial or cultural, there is definately a struggle. > > Every race has it’s weak point. > \*\* What is the weak point of the white race? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t know how you expect this question to be answered. Different people in the white race have different goals. As for WN’s, the chief goal is our own living space that won’t be flooded with non-whites as a safe place to raise our children and prosper in peace. > \*\* Well, in support of that goal why don’t you establish your own country somewhere? Why would you even _want_ this sort of thing in America? It’s not like its your homeland or anything like that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Let’s see…white Americans could get rid of 43% of all rapes and almost half of all violent crime by moving a fraction of the population into their own nation, or seceding to form their own. As for negros, they’ll probably continue doing what they always do, as can be shown by the butchery that goes on in Africa. That is none of my concern. Let them grow up on their own instead of expecting “whitey” to hold their hand and throw them money. > \*\* The problems in Africa are largely caused by the legacy of colonialism. And getting rid of white collar white Americans could cut down on 75% of white-collar fraud. Apparently rehabilitation is not a part of your New World Order. > [@](#): > > \*\* > There is a difference of opinions on this, but my personal belief is that small amounts are acceptable, but that a strong demographic majority must be maintained. In white nations, a strong white majority must be maintained even if a few Asians are allowed to live in port cities. Ditto for everyone else in the world. Every country has the right to maintain a strong demographic majority to avoid ethnic rivalry and strife. > \*\* Of course they have that right. The US and Canada have _thankfully_ chosen not to exercise that right. Suck it up, seriously agitate for change, or leave. > [@](#): > > \*\* > High doses of immigration are a short term pill. In the long term, it’s doomed to failure. Already, wages have spiraled downward and job security is a thing of the past for most. Right now, everything is still propped up on the system that was built by whites. America is not egalitarian, even though that’s being pressed for most vigorously. White people are still the majority and are still the ones putting most of the tax money in. Third world immigration has only been coming in since 1965. Let’s see how well the US “prospers” a few decades from now when whites are a minority and mestizos the majority 🙂 > \*\* Surely you’re not claiming that the present economic situation is the result of immigration. Surely you’re not claiming that the dot-com problem, the twisted accounting books of Enron etc., and the business cycle itself (which is supposed to have recessions, btw) are all caused by immigration. Oh no, it must be the Jews, right? :rolleyes: See, if the US economy had been in steady decline since 1965 (btw, cite please) you might have a case. But since 1965 the market has gone up and down, as markets are wont to do. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Taking my tax dollars to prop up programs for blacks and immigrants is coercion. The mestizos pouring into the US are all either democratic voting, or they support the neoconservative “compassionate” conservatism which supports taxation for social programs. In other words, you’ll get more big government liberalism with your blessed non-white majority. Whites are the voting block in the US that most want to scale back government. This is why American Libertarians who are pro-immigration crack me up. They are basically slitting their own throat. In the name of non-statism, they support flooding their country with people that love the state and will vote pro-State, thus dooming themselves to a future where they will never gain enough support to make any difference in an election. When there is increasing ethnic strife and rivalry, who do you think it lying in wait to “fix things”? Big government. Who supports immigration? It’s not the people, it’s Big Government. > \*\* I realize much of this is towards Libertarians, so I’ll leave it to them. But I would venture that they understand that not everyone shares their views and that a non-Libertarian nation, should it be the will of the people, is perfectly acceptable. They also acknowledge the fact that they are not in the majority. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I’ll leave with this statement from an article, since this thread is beginning to bore me. We’re just going back and forth and no one has convinced me why multiculturalism is a great thing. > \*\* Likewise > [@](#): > > \*\* > \*"The real extremism lies with the pro-immigration crowd that denies the right of states and local governments to control immigration into their own communities, and thus denies that traditional American institutions, even when influenced by a reasonable number of immigrants, are anything worth preserving. > > Being the grandson of Mexican immigrants myself, I can sympathize with those who want to escape the inequality and poverty of Latin America. However, simply turning the United States into part of Latin America is not going to solve the problem. The unique institutions of the United States are what makes it such a draw to immigrants. If want are to be a true help to immigrants, we must be sure that our society is preserved, so that in a generation it will continue to offer the promise of a free society and not become little more than a clone of the societies that these immigrants are trying to escape in the first place.\* > [http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken43.html](http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken43.html) \*\* While it does look slightly paranoid, your link says nothing about closing all borders and removing all immigrants currently in America. It only suggests that immigration be severely limited; an idea that sounds at least vaguely defensible. In short, you give a lot of contradictory claims. The end result of your philosophy would seem to be for white people to establish their own country and keep them durn furriners out. Why you want to turn America into this country beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/272 "2002-10-29T01:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The implications are that places with a non-white majority are not nearly as tolerant as places with a white majority. Whites nowadays bend over backwards to prove that they are “tolerant” and “multicultural”, yet most non-whites know that this stuff is bullshit, so they advance their own self-interests and are as bigoted as they want to be, because this society doesn’t punish and condemn non-white bigots._This leads me to believe that when our nations are non-white majority, we will face a great deal of discrimination and violence directed towards us as whites._ We think this should be prevented. The sentence in italics says it all. You are afraid that your race will find itself staring down the barrel of non-white supremacy (to steal a phrase from Bono), just as many races have done. But what you fail to realize is that by promoting racial separatism in the way you advocate, in effect you’re ensuring that your worst fears come true. By refusing to transcend an “us” vs “them” mentality, by amplifying the disharmonious differences in cultures instead of seeing the cool similarities, by prejudging people just because of their country of origin and skin tone, you automatically make yourself an enemy to groups who otherwise would be your allies and comrades. Think about it. People don’t start trying to break into a house until the owners put up burgular bars and security fences. If you don’t want to be a target to those you fear, stop making yourself one. It’s as simple as that. > [@](#): > > Black males make up 6% of the population, yet are responsible for half the crime and 43% of all rapes. That’s a very violent group, and I wouldn’t want myself, or my children to be living anywhere near an area made up of mostly blacks. Why haven’t you gotten tired of spouting the same ole stupid statistic? Show me a stat that says most of the victims of “black” crime are white and perhaps I’ll play a sad diddy on my violin. Or better yet show me a stat that says that the average white person is more likely to be victimized by a black crook than a white crook, and maybe my eyes will start leaking tears. But not because I’m actually saddened by the news. It’ll be because flying pigs have always made me laugh until I cry. > [@](#): > > However, I would still rather live near those white corporate criminals than a rapist or a murderer. I would rather be a victim of fraud by those white collar criminals than a victim of rape and murder by a black thug. LOL! You are more likely to be raped and murdered by a white person than you are a black. Take the blinders off and maybe you’ll see that lily white skin doesn’t always translate into lily white morality. I really hope you don’t end up excessively trusting someone who means you harm simply because your eyes see them as being good by virtue of their color. But, actually, I take that back. It would be quite fitting (in a storybook irony kind of way) if you were attacked by a white dude and the one person who came to your rescue was a black person, who coincidentally you saw a few days earlier and immediately reacted to as if he was a thug. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/273 "2002-10-29T02:16:48Z")
Actually there is some amount of truth WRT the claims about organized crime. It happens that the era of the heaviest Jewish involvement in organized crime (1890s - 1940s) was also the time at which organized crime was taking the form that it has now. Specifically, changing from brawling street gangs of mostly amatuer thugs to relatively sophisticated businesslike professional criminal operations. This being driven largely by the labor union wars, and, later and more significantly, by the Prohibition. Rothstein was a prominent figure in organizing criminal efforts WRT the latter, and is thought to have had a large role (primarily financial) in setting up criminal enterprises to take advantage of the situation. I’ve read Cohen’s book - he takes a very romantic view of these Jewish thugs, and is exaggerating the role of Rothstein. But there is - as there is apt to be - a kernel of truth in it. But it is irrelevant here. During this same time period, the Italian mobsters were at least as numerous as the Jewish ones, if not more. Sal Marranzano, Al Capone, Lucky Luciano etc. etc. Irish involvement was pretty small. Most of the great 19th century NYC street gangs were primarily Irish, but they did not seem to organize themselves as organized crime in the way of the other ethnic groups. So I guess this means if you are Irish you can call for all the Jews and Italians to be deported. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/274 "2002-10-29T02:37:01Z")
Sionnach said: > [@](#): > > Let me guess. This organization includes “Jew” as white. I wouldn’t be surprised. Yeah, because they aren’t stupid enough to “think” that somebody’s religion has anything to do with their skin color. Of course, that is even if you really think “races” have any real differences at all, as I discussed in my message summarizing what was said in the book, _Bad Medicine_ – which you ignored, as well as ignoring the message I’d written prior to that in which I asked you several questions and pointed out several huge flaws. But don’t worry – we expect that from you. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/275 "2002-10-29T02:53:54Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] Duck Duck Goose said, while quoting the User Agreement for this site: > [@](#): > > Is this “hate speech” yet? "… IMO, it’s definitely “hateful”, without a doubt “defamatory”, unquestionably “inaccurate”, and… …um, yeah, IMO you are now a Jerk, as well as a racist. If you have something to say about another user who you think is breaking the rules, **e-mail the moderators and/or administrators**. Do not post about it within the thread itself. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/276 "2002-10-29T03:24:32Z")
Yay! Now **Duck Duck Goose** and I have the same number of warnings! Don’t worry, Duckie. Mine was a year and a half ago. I bet they don’t even remember it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/277 "2002-10-29T11:52:47Z")
**Sionnach** , I’m the person who asked the question about Hawaii, and I responded to your reply at the bottom of[this page](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=140823&perpage=50&pagenumber=4). You did not see fit to answer me. I’ve been stranded in the worst neighborhood in Honolulu after midnight. I felt much safer there than I would in the equivalent neighborhoods in most US East Coast cities. While I was living in Hawaii, there was a “wilding” incident where some teenager ran amok through downtown Honolulu. The reaction from pretty much the entire population was “Shame on you!”, ala someone’s maiden aunt. While I couldn’t find crime statistics on-line, it’s my understanding that Honolulu has a lower crime rate per capita than most cities its size. The economics in Hawaii are horrendous, I’ll admit, but that’s due in large part to the white-owned “Big 5” corporations and/or the Bishop Estate which is also run by white people. Here on the mainland, I live in a mixed-race neighborhood, and feel as safe if not safer here as I did growing up in my almost all white small town. Among other things, this neighborhood lacks something my hometown has – a tradition of bored teenagers smashing mailboxes late at night. I’ve walked to and from the bus stop with both black and Asian neighbors as well as white neighbors, and found them equally pleasant. In fact, the person I liked least was a rather obnoxious, superior, white woman. Then again, that is only anecdote colored by personal experience and attitude. I’ve never had anything stolen from me here, nor am I all that worried about it. That happened to me twice in high school. Even _assuming_ the crime statistics you parrot are accurate, most crime is inter-racial, i.e. blacks tend to prey on blacks, and whites tend to prey on whites. I’m in far more danger from a white man than a black man. I’ve also heard far more vicious racist and anti-immigrant speech first hand from white people than I have from black people. Discrimination continues to exist in the US. A few years ago, I worked in a manufacturing plant in that small town I mentioned. Black people were only allowed to work in one small section of the plant with even fewer opportunities for advancement, not that there were many to begin with. One man was pulled from his job on the shop floor to work in that section, and not for any disciplinary reason that I’m aware of, and I’m pretty sure I would have been aware of any. As for immigrants getting more benefits than US citizens, as I told **kulkulcon** , that has not been my experience. As someone who was in the process of being naturalized when I graduated from college, I could not get jobs with the US government because I was not a US citizen (by the way, I don’t consider that to be an unreasonable position – it was just frustrating because I had started the process and it was in the hands of that same government). I was also not eligible for the National Merit Scholarship simply because I was not a citizen, despite meeting the rest of the qualifications, including high enough test scores. Inheritance taxes are higher for non-citizens. Finally, quite frankly, I have to deal with the attitudes of people like you who, because I look and sound mostly American, feel free to bash all “immigrants” when they actually appear to mean “illegal aliens” and say things like “Everyone who wasn’t born in this country should leave now.” When a coworker said that shortly after September 11th, I pointed out to her that, if she meant it, it was going to be a lot longer before her database was fixed. You haven’t mentioned whether or not you’re a Christian, but I will point out for those WNs who are that Christ deliberately used foreigners and outsiders to make his points, most notably in the parable of the Good Samaritan. He also first revealed Himself as Messiah to a Samaritan woman, and one who had a reputation as a bit of a slut at that. Samaritans, at the time, were about as well thought of as Mexicans today. Look, if you want to set up your own nation, that’s fine with me. I’ll treat it like I do a certain white suburb near here which saw no problem in promoting a racist cop who beat his last two wives. I won’t visit it, I won’t spend my money in it, in fact, I’ll have as little to do with it as possible. **You with the face** , I experienced very little discrimination against white people in Hawaii. In fact the Episcopal Church is quite well thought of there and Queen Liliuokalani was quite impressed by a trip she made to England. So much so that she adopted the idea that beaches should be property of the crown, thus public property (with a very few exceptions), among other things. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/278 "2002-10-29T12:41:48Z")
A tally and short commentary to my 11 questions and **Sionnach** ’s answers: > [@](#): > > Q. The Jews, are they involved in any conspiracies? > A. Yup. **1 out 11.** > [@](#): > > Q. The Jews, are they contaminating the white race from the inside? > Q. Read Culture of Critique, and you tell me. In other words yes I take it. To be clear I poked around a little in what the blabbering idiocy in forenamed piece of less than quasi scientific literary dung has to say on the topic. The muttonhead MacDonald, supposed scholar and scientist, embraces several ideas that would equate with a clear “Yes,” in response to my question. **2 out of 11.** > [@](#): > > Q. The white race is equal to who exactly? > A. No one, because I don’t believe in “equality”. No human beings are equal, no races are equal, and no cultures are equal. Obviously your wearing that red, white and black armband a little too tightly around the arm as for what is good for the blood circulation, or maybe I’m being less than clear in phrasing question. I meant to inquire as to white makes up the white race. You answer is however telling enough, and you have answered elsewhere, rep[etedly confusing nationality with race and culture. As far as I understand, in your view it it is some of the people with relatively recent European ancestry, but only the ‘nice ones’, that make up this imaginary race. I tentatively say that this makes **3 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. Do you believe in racially pure nations? > A. […] Why not? Didn’t your mother tell you that it isn’t polite to answer a question with a question? Anyway, I take the answer to be affirmative. **4 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. Do you believe that self-determination should be granted races[…]? > A. Yes[…]. **5 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. Is there an ongoing struggle between the races that is motivated by the natural racial differences? > A. Whether the difference is racial or cultural, there is definately a struggle. Since you equate race and culture to such confusion as to be more or less the same thing I take it the answer is an unequivocal yes. **6 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. Are certain races inferior in any way? > A. Every race has it’s weak point. Aha, nice attempot to dodge the issue, but you’ve said some stuff before about it… Like that ‘they’ commit more crimes and are less reliable and so on, and so on? I’ll just chalk you up for a yes based on your continuous diatribe of intolerance and condesencion against various imagined races that you entertain in your mind. **7 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. What is the chief goal of the white race? > A. As for WN’s, the chief goal is our own living space that won’t be flooded with non-whites as a safe place to raise our children and prosper in peace. Lebensraum in other words. **8 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. If races unite into racially pure nations, will this create a natural harmony that will solve many societal problems like decreasing crime to acceptable levels? > A. Let’s see…white Americans could get rid of 43% of all rapes and almost half of all violent crime by moving a fraction of the population into their own nation, or seceding to form their own. As for negros, they’ll probably continue doing what they always do, as can be shown by the butchery that goes on in Africa. That is none of my concern. Let them grow up on their own instead of expecting “whitey” to hold their hand and throw them money. That would be a yes then. **9 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. Should people that do not belong to the dominant race in a territorial nation be let alone and live there, or should they be deported into ‘their own nation’? > A. […] my personal belief is that small amounts are acceptable, but that a strong demographic majority must be maintained. […] Really now? We would never have guessed. So lets see… that’s **10 out of 11** > [@](#): > > Q. What about the Jews? Do we let them stay where they are or should the majority of them be moved to somewhere? If so, where to? > A. Israel or Mars. And **JACKPOT!!!** That is **11 opinions out of 11** that agree with the neo-Nazi weltanschauung. Note that no other ideology would agree with all of those. What does that make Sionnach? Nah! Never! So many nice things to say about Jews, homosexuals, blacks, Mexicans and what not! Who would have dreamt she was a little neo-Nazi after all. The world never ceases to surprise me. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Halogen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Halogen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Halogen)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2002, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/279 "2002-10-30T02:08:58Z")
Good to see you guys are still here. Hope everyone’s doin’ well. SPARC SAID: I poked around a little in what the blabbering idiocy in forenamed piece of less than quasi scientific literary dung has to say on the topic. The muttonhead MacDonald, supposed scholar and scientist…Obviously your wearing that red, white and black armband a little too tightly…continuous diatribe of intolerance and condesencion …Didn’t your mother tell you that it isn’t polite… RESPONSE: Hey Sparc- you trying to take our jobs as the “haters?” Seriously- what is your problem? You need to calm down and discuss these issues like an adult. Regarding the national socialist ideal- I don’t speak for Sionnach or anyone else, but I agree with everything that Sionnach said and that Sparc inferred from her words. In other words, I agree with the Nazi ideal as Sparc defined it, except about IQ- East Asians are very high, and Jews are highest of all. Let’s look at this Nazi ideal. What exactly is “evil” about it, if the facts are as we believe them to be (jews are manipulative weasels, races differentiate in intelligence and aggressiveness)? Isn’t geographical separation fair and just? Or, look at it from the other side. If the facts are as we believe them to be (which they are), why is every bastard politician from Al Sharpton to Pat Buchanan forcing a race-mixing, Arab-bombing genocide on White America? We are always seeing TV and movies about the heroic Native Americans fighting evil whites who came to take their land. Why do you think we are told that it is evil for US to fight back against those who come to take OUR lands such as the U.S. and Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/280 "2002-10-30T02:28:32Z")
> [@](#): > > We are always seeing TV and movies about the heroic Native Americans fighting evil whites who came to take their land. Why do you think we are told that it is evil for US to fight back against those who come to take OUR lands such as the U.S. and Europe? Huh? Who the HELL is trying to take your land away from you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522.md?page=15)