# White Nationalism, Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522 "2002-10-23T14:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/81 "2002-10-25T01:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Further Sionnach, what about the questions I asked you at the end of the original thread? Are you going to answer them? What questions? I’ve stated that all of your psychobabble about what you assume my personal life to be like is inaccurate, so anything relating to that is going to be ignored, since you apparently ignored _me_. > [@](#): > > Statistically–as in so many other ways–you’re full of shit. The highest rates of crime are committed by and against members of the same racial group. Interracial crime is a very small portion of the overall crime rate. I was referring to interracial crime. When the crime is interracial, black on white crime is far more likely than the reverse, even though it’s white on black crime that gets all the media attention and fits by Jesse Jackson and liberal groups. > [@](#): > > I can honestly say I don’t care whether it’s good for the nation, since I’m not a nationalist. Is it good for the family? Maybe not. But you are more interested in your nation than the people in it. A nation _is_ the people, and what is bad for the family is bad for the nation because the family is the basic unit to bring up the next generations. Does anyone here even care about future generations, or is the mentality just “me, me, me” and “now, now, now”? > [@](#): > > I suppose, like so many other concepts, that of “overpopulation” eludes you, doesn’t it? The birth rate in all Western nations is declining. The “overpopulation” scare is a liberal myth that probably contributed greatly to the lack of birth rates in the West. The problem we will face in the future is underpopulation, not overpopulation… and the bandaid of choice on our aging nations will be more and more immigrants, whom will likely completely take over every Western nation in the future as long as the majority of whites have lost the will to reproduce and think about future generations. > [@](#): > > So, you look forward to being used and treated as breeding stock, then? Knock yourself out, kiddo. This is exactly the type of denigration of motherhood and family that is common on the left. > [@](#): > > Sorry, I hate to interject, but do you have any evidence for this? > > Birth rates in the United States and Canada (as well as in the rest of the “Developed World” - Western Europe, Japan, Australia) have be declining for a long time - long before “feminism” had “librated” women from family and motherhood. A primary reason for the decline of birth rates in the developed world had to to with the success of the U.S., Canadian, etc. economies. People were more economically comfortable in the 1950’s than now, and they had a baby **boom**. [Population decline](http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm) > [@](#): > > A much easier solution in dealing with the problem is immigration. That solution comes at the price of our preserving our culture. Imagine Japan flooded with whites or mexicans with a Japanese minority. It would no longer resemble Japan. It would be like California. Ditto for Italy, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, etc. An America/Canada will majority asians, mestizos or Muslims will not be the same America/Canada you and I grew up in. > [@](#): > > There’s simply no historical support for any claim of some traditionally “95% white” nation in North America. Maybe you were thinking of Iceland? Actually, the accurate number is closer to 90% white in 1950, or 89.5% to be exact. The 1965 Immigration act is what flooded non-white immigration into the US. Ironically, the people were told that opening immigration to non-whites would not change the cultural landscape of the country, since in those days that was actually important. Since it was a blatant lie, nowadays whites are just told that they have no culture and that diversity is strength. ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/82 "2002-10-25T01:36:33Z")
I want you guys to read these articles … [http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis\_.shtml](http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis_.shtml) [http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl](http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl) And tell me… do any of you think that white people have a right to not have to put up with that kind of thing in their own community? Would any of you guys support a law that says that people in a community can make their own immigration laws to restrict who gets to move in? Or, do you guys think that no one should have that right, and that multiculturalism must be spread to _all_ regardless of whether the people want it or not? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/83 "2002-10-25T01:45:01Z")
> [@](#): > > People were more economically comfortable in the 1950’s than now, and they had a baby boom. Oh now that’s just stupid. Wrong. Incorrect, etc. The standard of living now is insanely better than it was 50 years ago. You’d have to be delusional to believe otherwise, which come to think of it, never mind. And nobody here has disputed that black-on-white crime is higher (per capita, at least) than white-on-black crime. The question is _why_? Is it magical pixies or economics? Come to think of it, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/84 "2002-10-25T01:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > I want you guys to read these articles … Is there anything strange in your ignoring numerous points made by people yet expecting everyone to read every bit of repetitive nonsense you put up? But never mind. As an addendum to my previous post, here’s yet another WN [thread](http://pub94.ezboard.com/fjewmonitorfrm1.showMessage?topicID=27.topic). And here is my question for you: what do think is the likelihood that PailRyder is actually Jewish? You can’t make this stuff up… ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/85 "2002-10-25T01:54:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\*And now…for the lighter side of WN. Check [this](http://pub94.ezboard.com/fjewmonitorfrm1.showMessage?topicID=4.topic) out. I believe PailRyder is tongue-in-cheek, but the others appear to be serious. (Don Black is the founder of Stormfront). ;j \*\* That’s comedy gold. It’s best if you imagine the voice of jewmonitor as Dale Gribble from _King of the Hill_. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/86 "2002-10-25T02:10:50Z")
> [@](#): > > And tell me… do any of you think that white people have a right to not have to put up with that kind of thing in their own community? Would any of you guys support a law that says that people in a community can make their own immigration laws to restrict who gets to move in? Or, do you guys think that no one should have that right, and that multiculturalism must be spread to all regardless of whether the people want it or not? I read the articles. One was a newpaper account of a brawl in which a local man and a Somali immigrant where the Somali pulled a knife and stabbed the local man. Wow, this has really convinced me. :rolleyes: Because, heaven knows that a white man would never pull a knife on another person and stab him. [Oh wait,](http://www.rickross.com/reference/skinheads/skinheads19.html) except it does happen. Although since it was a jew, that makes it Ok right? The other is an article about a mayor in some town in Maine that doesn’t want any more immigrants. :rolleyes: What exactly does any of this prove? That is anecdotal evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/87 "2002-10-25T02:15:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > **This is exactly the type of denigration of motherhood and family that is common on the left.** Eh? You’re the one going on and on about how white folks need to get out and breed more. If there’s any denigration going on, it’s on your end. \*\* > [@](#): > > That solution comes at the price of our preserving our culture. Imagine Japan flooded with whites or mexicans with a Japanese minority. It would no longer resemble Japan. It would be like California.\*\* You mean the California that has the **fifth highest GDP in the world**? Which means only four countries **in the world** have a higher one. And one of those is the U.S. itself. Yeah, it would suck to be like California. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/88 "2002-10-25T02:17:17Z")
Well duh. What else are you supposed to use when you don’t have science and you don’t have statistics? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/89 "2002-10-25T02:18:03Z")
Sionnach, I think you’re sad. I think your life is sad. You know ever since I’ve looked at the SF board, and this thread, I’ve been noticing the race of people. I don’t like it. I don’t like that when I took my dog for a walk, and the lovely teenage girl across the street said “hi” to me I took note of the fact that she’s black. That I even thought twice about the race of the snipers. It’s sick, and pathetic. I liked myself better when it just didn’t matter. I think that you’ll like yourself better too if you just let this crap go. In the big scheme of things is _race_ really that important? I have so many other better things to worry about. I live in a reality where nice folks comes in all colors, as so do the assholes. Race isn’t even on my radar. Call me naive (I’m sure you will) but I just really don’t care. Beauty comes in all colors, and I thing that it’s really sad that you can’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/90 "2002-10-25T02:39:24Z")
As a jew, this thread makes me angry. **Why wasn’t I sent a message???** WHERE IS MY PIECE OF WORLD DOMINATION? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/91 "2002-10-25T02:39:34Z")
Unfortunately, hatred also comes in all colors. I know when I was little, I NEVER thought about race. I used to watch _The Jeffersons_ and never even noticed that Tom and Helen were a bi-racial couple. It wasn’t a big deal until someone mentioned it later on. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/92 "2002-10-25T02:51:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > I want you guys to read these articles … > > [http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis\_.shtml](http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis_.shtml) > > [http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl](http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl) > And tell me… do any of you think that white people have a right to not have to put up with that kind of thing in their own community? Would any of you guys support a law that says that people in a community can make their own immigration laws to restrict who gets to move in? Or, do you guys think that no one should have that right, and that multiculturalism must be spread to _all_ regardless of whether the people want it or not? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/93 "2002-10-25T03:20:42Z")
> [@](#): > > do any of you think that white people have a right to not have to put up with that kind of thing in their own community? Er, put up with _what_ kind of thing? I assume you must mean something like, “Blacks! Moving into their white community! Without their permission! Because the liberal Jewish multiculturalism establishment tells them they can!” However, not surprisingly, your links don’t seem to make the “Oh, those poor oppressed whites!” point they’re apparently intended to make. **Sionnach’s first link:** [http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis\_.shtml](http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis_.shtml) > [@](#): > > Saturday, October 5, 2002 > Lewiston Somalis bewildered > Mayor’s letter says no more immigrants > > By KELLEY BOUCHARD, Blethen Maine Newspapers > Copyright © 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc > > LEWISTON — Some Somalis are offended, others are confused, by a letter this week from Mayor Laurier Raymond asking them to stop coming to the city. > > About 1,060 Somalis have moved to Lewiston from other parts of the United States since February 2001, according to one city official’s estimate. About 280 Somalis, many of them former refugees, arrived this summer between Memorial Day and Labor Day. To summarize: There aren’t that many jobs to go around; there are culture clashes, as is inevitable when you move a large group of “different” people into any city; there’s an increasing stream of Somali refugees showing up in Lewiston expecting housing and jobs; and the city’s basically full. Mayor Raymond wants the Somalis to stop coming, just for a bit, to give Lewiston some breathing space. > [@](#): > > In the letter, Raymond said, “This large number of new arrivals cannot continue without negative results for all. The Somali community must exercise some discipline and reduce the stress on our limited finances and our generosity … We will continue to accommodate the present residents as best we can.” > > The letter concluded, “We have been overwhelmed and have responded valiantly. Now we need breathing room. Our city is maxed-out financially, physically and emotionally.” > > …officials in this former mill town of 36,000 people are seeking extra state and federal funding to help Somalis assimilate. That doesn’t seem like an unreasonable request to me. Maybe a trifle tactless–he could have dealt with the problem by going to the Somali leaders privately and working something out, but still… Far from being upset at the prospect of blacks moving into their community, it seems like the people of Lewiston are actually doing all they can to help the Somalis move in. They seem to be enjoying the “multiculturalism challenge”, even if Mayor Ray is personally feeling a tad overwhelmed. [http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021014lewiston.shtml](http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021014lewiston.shtml) > [@](#): > > Monday, October 14, 2002 > Hundreds march to back Lewiston’s Somalian residents > > Associated Press > Copyright © 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc. > > LEWISTON — Hundreds of people joined a peaceful march Sunday to show support for Somalian immigrants in Maine’s second-largest city, whose mayor has raised concerns that local services will be strained if many more Somalis arrive. > > Police said about 250 people, most of them longer-term residents of the city, participated in a five-block walk from the Calvary United Methodist Church to a mosque where Lewiston’s Somalis worship. Some of the participants gave speeches expressing solidarity with the new arrivals at the mosque. [http://www.wmtw.com/Global/story.asp?S=975817&nav=7k6rBpnV](http://www.wmtw.com/Global/story.asp?S=975817&nav=7k6rBpnV) > [@](#): > > Teachers turning Lewiston controversy into learning opportunity > > LEWISTON (AP) – Some teachers are turning the controversy around Lewiston’s mayor and the Somali community into an opportunity for learning. > > At Minot Consolidated School, Janice Rawson’s seventh- and eighth-graders have been talking about letters written to the local newspaper and have tried to separate fact from fiction. > > \< snip \> > > Julie Zink’s intercultural communications course at the University of Southern Maine brainstormed about ideas for easing tension in the city. > > At Holy Cross, Bonnie Bannister hopes to bring a Somali speaker to talk to her fifth-graders, who have made cards welcoming their new neighbors to the community. **Sionnach’s second link:** [http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl](http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl) > [@](#): > > October 4, 2002 > Lewiston man knifed in brawl; 5 charged > By Mark LaFlamme > > Staff Writer > > A local man was stabbed in the back and chest early Thursday and slashed across the throat when two groups brawled at Knox and Birch streets. > > Troy Berry, 21, was listed in stable condition at Central Maine Medical Center Thursday night. > > Bashir Jama, 23, of 20 Knox St., was charged with aggravated assault at about 6:30 p.m. after he was identified as one of the assailants, police said. > > \< snip \> > > From his hospital bed Thurday night, even Berry seemed unsure if the fight was the result of racial tension. The three people charged with aggravated assault in the stabbing are Somalis. > > …Berry also said he was having a cigarette with two of the suspects when a third Somali appeared. Words were exchanged. Fists started flying. Berry said he began fighting with one of the Somalis and didn’t realize at first that a knife was involved. > > “I thought he was punching me. It turns out, he was stabbing me,” Berry said. “He probably felt as threatened as I before we started fighting.” > > Nearly a dozen people were involved in the clash and alcohol appeared to be a factor, police said. Investigators said there is a possibility the dispute had nothing to do with race. Okay, so a bunch of twenty-somethings standing around on a street corner get drunk and get in a fight with a bunch of other twenty-somethings. Some of them happen to be black, some of them happen to be white. So what? To go back to Sionnach’s first link: [http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis\_.shtml](http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis_.shtml) > [@](#): > > Police Chief William Welch said conflicts between Somalis and other residents seem to be based on culture clashes rather than racial unrest. Somali students have been involved in recent fights at Lewiston High School. Three Somalis were charged with aggravated assault Thursday following an attack on another Lewiston man. > > “Each time, the people involved say it’s not racial. Witnesses say it’s not racial,” Welch said. So it’s not racial. Neither of your links has anything to do with people “making their own immigration laws to restrict who gets to move in”. Nobody in either article is quoted as saying, “Get them out of here.” As a matter of fact, it’s the exact opposite. > [@](#): > > The secondary migration of Somalis to Lewiston has led local, state and federal officials to look for new ways to help the city’s mostly white, French-Catholic population welcome its new black, Muslim residents. The federal Office of Refugee Resettlement has responded by reallocating some funding to help Lewiston’s Somalis with job training, language programs and social services. It would appear that it’s only Sionnach who thinks the Somalis ought to be forced to leave Lewiston, which is odd, since… > [@](#): > > I happen to be in Canada. …and one might presume that it’s none of your concern what goes on in Lewiston, Maine. Oh, and by the way, since “immigration” does seem to be the biggest burr under y’all’s saddle, check out my link… [http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=101302tolerance](http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=101302tolerance) > [@](#): > > Culture clash often accompanies immigration > BY PATRICK CONNORS > > Business Writer > > Lewiston is a city of immigrants. People who have come here over the years to carve a better life. > > Along the way tensions have risen and subsided as each new group assimilated into neighborhoods, blending the culture. The Irish and the French-Canadians and, now, the Somalis. > > \< snip \> > > The Irish, for example, “were met with a good deal of antagonism” when they arrived in Lewiston in the 1850s, according to historian James Leamon, a professor emeritus at Bates College. > > Citing the book “Historic Lewiston: A Textile City in Transition,” Leamon says the Irish were viewed by already-settled English protestants as a group with “an alien religion and outlandish customs.” > > Anti-Irish sentiment reached its apex in 1855, when a Protestant mob burned an Irish Catholic chapel on Lincoln Street. > > Leamon says the Irish were branded as petty thieves and wanton drinkers, too. Despite the labels and occasional flare-ups, though, the response to Irish immigrants in Lewiston was “surprisingly liberal in a laissez faire age,” according to “Historic Lewiston.” > > \< snip \> > > Like the Irish, French-Canadian immigrants to Lewiston caused friction among existing cultures when they arrived in the 1860s to fill jobs at the mills. French-Canadians, however, suffered less than their predecessors — probably because the Irish had “broken the ice,” according to Leamon. French-Canadians also escaped some discrimination by quickly developing a reputation for being more passive and hard working, Leamon says. “Sionnach” is a Irish name, isn’t it? If you had tried to emigrate from Ireland to Lewiston in the 1850s, you’d have been the discriminated-against outsider, considered an “alien”, and a “drunken thief”, and if female, a “slut”, or worse. And I might also point out that the violence that would have resulted would have been white-on-white violence. Something to think about, eh? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/94 "2002-10-25T03:25:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > I want you guys to read these articles … > > [http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis\_.shtml](http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/021005somalis_.shtml) > > [http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl](http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=100402brawl) > > And tell me… do any of you think that white people have a right to not have to put up with that kind of thing in their own community? Would any of you guys support a law that says that people in a community can make their own immigration laws to restrict who gets to move in? Or, do you guys think that no one should have that right, and that multiculturalism must be spread to _all_ regardless of whether the people want it or not? Isolated incidents of sudden culture shock. Big deal. Benjamin Franklin expressed grave concern that the Germans were going to overwhelm the fledgling United States (and destroy its culture). My Irish ancestors were harried and tormented by your spiritual antecedents, the American Party, (better known by their self-applied and so appropriate nickname the Know Nothing Party) because they were going to destroy the fabric of America. There were cries and alarums over the immigration of the Poles, the Italians, the Portuguese, the Slovenians, Croats, and Serbians, the Bohemians, and on an on with each new wave of immigrants being identified as “the group” that was going to shred the American identity, destroy the American way of life, and overthrow American culture (such as it was). And here we are, almost 230 years after Franklin’s first concerns, still America. It does not look exactly the way it did in the 1780s–we don’t enslave people based on their skin color and our roads are not hip-deep in mud each Spring; we do not have restrictive state laws discriminating against people on the basis of their religion and we no longer see a third of our children die from common diseases before they reached adulthood; we have stopped murdering the aboriginal inhabitants (at least, openly) and we no longer draw our water by hand from a cistern that sits near our cesspool. There are a lot of differences between 1776 and 2002, but change is inevitable. For that matter, your undefined (and undefinable) “white” culture was not the same in 1950 as it was in 1850–or 1750 or 1650. All things change. Immigrants do bring changes, but they also assimilate. You can’t make me feel “proud” to be “white” when I enjoy so many things that arrived in this country with people who were not “white.” If you need to create some sort of ersatz “white” culture, go ahead–just take yourselves out somewhere isolated where you won’t bother the rest of the _humans_ with whom I share this country. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/95 "2002-10-25T03:27:34Z")
agiantdwarf asked: > [@](#): > > As a jew, this thread makes me angry. Why wasn’t I sent a message??? WHERE IS MY PIECE OF WORLD DOMINATION? Sorry, we left your name off the books by accident. Expect a visit by a Man in Black. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/96 "2002-10-25T03:29:11Z")
BTW, still waiting for Sionnach to explain how somebody’s religion changes their skin color (as in “Jews aren’t white”)… Good thing I’m not holding my breath… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/97 "2002-10-25T03:34:40Z")
Um, my skin’s sort of peach, with some parts at times very pale, and at other times, red and blotchy. Where does that leave me? ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/98 "2002-10-25T06:43:31Z")
\*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > [@](#): > > People were more economically comfortable in the 1950’s than now, and they had a baby **boom**. > > [Population decline](http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm) Just so we’re clear, I’ll repost your statement I responded to: _Originally posted by Sionnach_ > [@](#): > > Birth rates are declining in all Western nations because of the triumph of feminism in “liberating” women from family and motherhood. My response: > [@](#): > > Sorry, I hate to interject, but do you have any evidence for this? > > Birth rates in the United States and Canada (as well as in the rest of the “Developed World” - Western Europe, Japan, Australia) have be declining for a long time - long before “feminism” had “librated” women from family and motherhood. A primary reason for the decline of birth rates in the developed world had to to with the success of the U.S., Canadian, etc. economies. While true that the United States experienced a slight increase in birth rates in the 1950’s (and a smaller increase in the late 70’s and early 80’s), your original statement (that the decline in the birth rates is the result of the “triumph of feminism” liberating women from family and motherhood) doesn’t jibe with the _long-term trend_ in the decline of birth rates in the developed world. Here’s a [link](http://www.eh.net/ehresources/uspop/uspop.txt) giving you some data pertaining to the long-term decline in birth rates rates for the United States. Focus on the measure CBR (Crude Birth Rates). Notice the trend in declining birth rates? How does one explain the overall decline starting in 1870? The “triumph of feminism”? Here’s [another](http://www.myhistory.org/historytopics/articles/total_fertility_rate.html) that gives fertility rates for both whites and blacks from 1800 on. Notice the overall trend in the decline in fertility rates for both whites and blacks over time? Here’s a [graph](http://www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/PRB/Educators/Human_Population/Future_Growth/Natural_Increase_and_Future_Growth.htm) depicting birth and death rates for both the developed world and the underdeveloped from 1775-2000. Notice that the birth rate starts to decline around 1875 and continues thereafter? Here’s another [link](http://netec.mcc.ac.uk/WoPEc/data/Papers/nbrnberhi0056.html) that’s an abstract of a paper dealing with the population of the United States from 1790-1920. I’ll even provide an excerpt for your perusal: “The fertility transition was early (dating from at least 1800) and from very high levels. The average woman had over seven livebirths in 1800. The crude birth rate declined from about 55 in 1800 to about 25 in 1920. This occurred before 1860 in an environment without widespread urbanization and industrialization in most of the nation.” So at least in the United States, the trend in birth rates/fertility rates was already in decline, even before the US entered its period of industrialization (which is often cited as a major factor in understanding the decline in birth/fertility rates). Here’s a couple of links to studies examining the decline in birth rates/fertility rates in the US in the 1800’s: [http://www.hist.umn.edu/~hacker/vita.pdf](http://www.hist.umn.edu/~hacker/vita.pdf) > **[haines.pdf](https://conference.nber.org/confer/2002/si2002/haines.pdf)** > > 196.57 KB If you are going to posit that “Birth rates are declining in all Western nations because of the triumph of feminism in ‘liberating’ women from family and motherhood”, then your going to need to explain how “feminism” is responsible for the continual decline in birth rates/fertility rates in the 1800’s starting in the 1800’s to today. And to state that “people were more economically comfortable in the 1950’s than now, and they had a baby boom” ignores all the available economic evidence from a historical perspective. Surely you would agree that living conditions have improved dramatically from the 1800’s until today in the developed world? Yet the overall trend has been one of contined _decline_ in birth/fertility rates. I think positing economic explanations is much more defensible than blaming it on the “triumph of feminism” for the decline in birth/fertility rates in the developed world. Unless, of course your arguing that the economic growth and development that occurred in the developed world from the 1850’s to present afforded greater freedom/reproductive choices for women in those countries. In which case the “triumph of feminsim” is squarely on the shoulders of the developed (predominantly “white”) world. But then again, you may think that the Industrial Revolution (which helped precipitate the increase in living conditions throughout the developed world) was the result of a Jewish conspiracy to help precipitate the eventual decline in the birth/fertility rates of whites vis-a-vis non-whites :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pythagoras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@Pythagoras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pythagoras)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/99 "2002-10-25T07:11:45Z")
Im sorry, I must have slipped off the cultural bandwagon about 500 years back… somebody explain to me why we waste so much time trying to classify people into this or that category and then argue about one group trying to take over the world while another gets shafted? I thought we were all just people, what is the point of drawing these ridiculous lines? ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/100 "2002-10-25T09:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Sionnach_ > > What questions? I’ve stated that all of your psychobabble about what you assume my personal life to be like is inaccurate, so anything relating to that is going to be ignored, since you apparently ignored me. Nope I didn’t ignore you. And that what you delivered wasn’t an answer, was it now? I answered you in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2534505#post2534505). Where I asked you some more questions. I’ll reiterate and rephrase for you: How old are you? What happened when you used to be a “liberal punk”, did someone hurt you or disappoint you? Have you had multiple or one very significant incident of violence or fear of violence by people of other skin color/ethnicity directed at you or your close ones? If so, what would you do if these incidents had involved big burly Aryan Brotherhood Romper Stomper Skins? Hate White Nationalists, or all white people or just men in general? I will also add: Did you grow up under stable family conditions? We already know that there was strife between ethnical groups in your childhood environment, in what way where you involved? What was your attendance card like at school? Do you have a job/go to school? What is your financial situation? Or rather, do you feel that you live below the standard you deserve? Have significant people around you lost their jobs, or lived in substandard conditions during your life? Where they ‘white people?’ Did you seem to perceive that all the ‘brown people’ were doing OK in this respect while all people of “your kind” where disenfranchised? These questions are much more important than the rest of the babbling going on here. Maybe these can be answered with the truth. If I am way off the mark, please try to tell us a little about yourself and your past anyway. I think it would help people understand what you are trying to say. And hey, now that you will be talking about yourself, do try to stick to the truth. As regards ideology I also have some questions: Have you read ‘Mein Kampf’ by Hitler? If so, did you understand it? Have you read ‘The Third Reich’ by Müller? If so, did you understand it? Have you visited Dachau, or Birkenau, or Auschwitz? If so, what was your impression and feeling? Have you been to the NSDAP documentation center in Berchtesgaden (Where Hitler used to live and where the Eagles Nest still is)? Did you view the film material collected there? If so, what did you think? How many persons have you met that were NSDAP members back in the 30s and during the war? What did they tell you? Have you ever met an ex-SS officer? If you did, did he seem to think that he had done a good job? What part of the Nazi era and the war did he tell you about? What did you feel about what he told you? How many concentration camp survivors have you met? Did they show you their tattoos? Why didn’t you believe that their experiences where real? Finally; what about John Hron? Do you understand your shared guilt in incidents like his murder? Sparc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522.md?page=6)