# White Nationalism, Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522 "2002-10-23T14:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/101 "2002-10-25T13:50:42Z")
The only thing worse than an illinois Nazi is a Canadian one. They are so polite when they hate you. Having lived in Toronto for most of my life I’ve watched the change in demographics and well, I have to say this: “SO WHAT?” I like the fact that I can go out and not see a sea of same faces. I love Diversity of, culture, beliefs, ideas, and cuisine. Damn it Soionnach I can’t stand the idea of a Bland monchrome monotheistic Country you propose I should live in because we have the same skin pigmentation or that my ancestors came from Europe over 350 years ago. My Culture is Canadian. My Canada Includes not only Quebec but every other culture that has come into it. Lets face it Our country began as a Mostly French, Catholic colony with small English port towns, in the middle of a pre colonized (Natives) Territory. The influx of English immigrants that fled here after the American revolution weren’t just White Protestants, they included a great deal of Ex Slaves, freed to help fight against teh American Revolution. This countries Railway was built by Japanese and Chinese labourers as well as European ones. We’ve had East Indian immigrants coming into this nation since the early 1900s and many of those families that have been here for over a century have as much right to be called Canadian as any white family. I also have news for you pal. What makes Western culture so great is not the colour of the skin or just the European ancestry. It is the fact that it adapts and borrows from **all** other cultures and incorporates the best parts which benifit it, whether it is something as simple as music or food, a few simple words or entire concepts of business, government or innovations. You and your kind of narrow minded fear mongerers disgust me. I do well my family does well and if there is some Jewish conspiracy, or racial swamping designed to make me a second class citizen it has not affected me, or any of my friends and family negativly. It has enriched my life because I have more choice in life, I have more world views in which to see life. For that I am proud of this country. If you don’t like it here as it stands move to an island and have your little white community, isolate yourself away the world and pretend that you are better off with out it. Lord knows we’d be better off without you. ``` :mad: ``` ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/102 "2002-10-25T14:38:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by agiantdwarf \* > \*\*As a jew, this thread makes me angry. **Why wasn’t I sent a message???** WHERE IS MY PIECE OF WORLD DOMINATION? \*\* Another liberal Jew checking in…and a Spanish-speaking one at that! Ya know, I was wondering the same thing back in 1995, as I sat int he Novosibirsk regional party meeting of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (a minsnomer if ever there was one; it’s Vladimir Zhirinovsky’s party). The speaker, Zhirinovsky’s main political strateist, babbled on and on all morning about how the Jews were controlling world finances, and if the pure-blooded Slavs weren’t careful, they would achieve world domination. It was like listening to Adolf Hitler in, say, 1935, except with a Russian spin. The best part was that although my group was specially invited by the LDPR, they kicked us out after the morning session (pplitely, more or less, but whatever…). Their rationale? “Well, the afternoon session is for campaign strategy planning, and you know how it is…we can never be sure who the KGB are.” Very weird. I did pick up some campaign literature, though, which is always good for a chuckle or two. ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/103 "2002-10-25T16:23:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh now that’s just stupid. Wrong. Incorrect, etc. The standard of living now is insanely better than it was 50 years ago. You’d have to be delusional to believe otherwise, which come to think of it, never mind. Not at all. 50 years ago, people could actually have a home and family with one breadwinner. > [@](#): > > You mean the California that has the fifth highest GDP in the world? Which means only four countries in the world have a higher one. And one of those is the U.S. itself. > > Yeah, it would suck to be like California. California is also going to be “Nuevo Mexico” in a couple decades, and white people have been moving out of that state in droves. Entire sections of California resemble a third-world country. GDP is not everything. Quality of life is, and the quality of life to be found in the “multicultural” California areas is not worth it, IMO. > [@](#): > > Er, put up with _what_ kind of thing? I assume you must mean something like, "Blacks! Moving into their white community! Without their permission! Floods of third world immigration. > [@](#): > > There aren’t that many jobs to go around; there are culture clashes, as is inevitable when you move a large group of “different” people into any city; there’s an increasing stream of Somali refugees showing up in Lewiston expecting housing and jobs; and the city’s basically full. Mayor Raymond wants the Somalis to stop coming, just for a bit, to give Lewiston some breathing space. What’s so great about “culture clashes” that leftists think that a “culture clash” in every white neighborhood is a good thing? Do you think that there is anywhere in the world where white people can live amongst themselves _without_ third-world culture clashes? > [@](#): > > Far from being upset at the prospect of blacks moving into their community, it seems like the people of Lewiston are actually doing all they can to help the Somalis move in. They seem to be enjoying the “multiculturalism challenge”, even if Mayor Ray is personally feeling a tad overwhelmed. You think all the people love and voted for it? “The People” aren’t doing all they can. “The government” is, with “the People’s” tax dollars. Do you think that it’s the duty of white people in every one of their own cities to fork over half of their salaries to programs for immigrants? > [@](#): > > Okay, so a bunch of twenty-somethings standing around on a street corner get drunk and get in a fight with a bunch of other twenty-somethings. Some of them happen to be black, some of them happen to be white. So what? It’s a violent culture clash, which is inevitable when you flood an area with people of different cultures. Should every white community in the world have to put up with it? How does this say that “Diversity is strength”? It looks more to me that “Diversity is inherently unstable and causes strife”. > [@](#): > > It would appear that it’s only Sionnach who thinks the Somalis ought to be forced to leave Lewiston, which is odd, since… I’m concerned about the direction and beliefs of the leftists, which seems to be less tolerance of the native people who actually live in the community, and more _forcing_ everyone to accept floods of third-worlders with absolutely no respect to the wishes of the present inhabitants. > [@](#): > > Isolated incidents of sudden culture shock. Big deal. > > Benjamin Franklin expressed grave concern that the Germans were going to overwhelm the fledgling United States (and destroy its culture). > > My Irish ancestors were harried and tormented by your spiritual antecedents, the American Party, (better known by their self-applied and so appropriate nickname the Know Nothing Party) because they were going to destroy the fabric of America. > > There were cries and alarums over the immigration of the Poles, the Italians, the Portuguese, the Slovenians, Croats, and Serbians, the Bohemians, and on an on with each new wave of immigrants being identified as “the group” that was going to shred the American identity, destroy the American way of life, and overthrow American culture (such as it was). > > And here we are, almost 230 years after Franklin’s first concerns, still America. It does not look exactly the way it did in the 1780s–we don’t enslave people based on their skin color and our roads are not hip-deep in mud each Spring; we do not have restrictive state laws discriminating against people on the basis of their religion and we no longer see a third of our children die from common diseases before they reached adulthood; we have stopped murdering the aboriginal inhabitants (at least, openly) and we no longer draw our water by hand from a cistern that sits near our cesspool. There are a lot of differences between 1776 and 2002, but change is inevitable. > > For that matter, your undefined (and undefinable) “white” culture was not the same in 1950 as it was in 1850–or 1750 or 1650. All things change. Immigrants do bring changes, but they also assimilate. You can’t make me feel “proud” to be “white” when I enjoy so many things that arrived in this country with people who were not “white.” > > If you need to create some sort of ersatz “white” culture, go ahead–just take yourselves out somewhere isolated where you won’t bother the rest of the humans with whom I share this country. Yes, and in the past, immigrants were all encouraged to assimilate and didn’t have huge amounts of taxpayer social programs to prop them up and attract social leeches. Every immigration “flood” was followed by an immigration halt so that the immigrants let in would assimilate. Nowadays, there is no halt of immigration to follow the floods, assimilation is not required and “tolerance” is pushed on the present citizens if they don’t like it. Immigrants are forming seperate nations within the nation such as MEChA, who wants to “reclaim the Aztlan that the gringos stole”. “Multiculturalism” is pushed for instead of assimilation. Therefore, they are not assimilating. > [@](#): > > BTW, still waiting for Sionnach to explain how somebody’s religion changes their skin color (as in “Jews aren’t white”)… Good thing I’m not holding my breath… Race is not skin color, and jews are a seperate racial category. It’s a tribe people are born into, not convert to besides a very small few. Read [this article](http://mentalhealth.about.com/library/sci/0902/bljew902.htm), then tell me that the only difference between jews and whites is “religion”. Eponymous: You really think that birth control, abortion, and the trend among women to remain single with careers and couples to remain childless or only have 1 child has nothing to do with a drastic decline of birthrates? > [@](#): > > How old are you? 20’s > [@](#): > > What happened when you used to be a “liberal punk”, did someone hurt you or disappoint you? Not at all. > [@](#): > > Have you had multiple or one very significant incident of violence or fear of violence by people of other skin color/ethnicity directed at you or your close ones? A few, but that was common in both cities and towns where almost all the young mexicans formed hoodlum gangs. Only one person I knew was beaten to death by them. > [@](#): > > If so, what would you do if these incidents had involved big burly Aryan Brotherhood Romper Stomper Skins? Hate White Nationalists, or all white people or just men in general? The point is that none of those incidents _did_ involve wanna-be skins. Even if they had, WN does not = skinhead. You seem to have a very hard time digesting this information. So no, I would not hate WN, whites, or men if that occured, because the majority of whites and WN don’t form hoodlum gangs like the blacks and mestizos do. As a matter of fact, even the young Asians form huge gangs to smuggle drugs. > [@](#): > > Did you grow up under stable family conditions? Yup. My parents are the best. > [@](#): > > We already know that there was strife between ethnical groups in your childhood environment, in what way where you involved? Merely living in a multicultural society was how I was involved. That is why I think they are inherently unstable and doomed to collapse. > [@](#): > > What was your attendance card like at school? Honors. > [@](#): > > Do you have a job/go to school? I used to take classes, but for now am a stay-at-home wife until I get a part-time job. > [@](#): > > What is your financial situation? Or rather, do you feel that you live below the standard you deserve? The financial situation is good. My husband has a job that pays decently. The standard I live in now is perfectly fine for the moment, besides taxes being incredibly high. > [@](#): > > Have significant people around you lost their jobs, or lived in substandard conditions during your life? Where they ‘white people?’ Did you seem to perceive that all the ‘brown people’ were doing OK in this respect while all people of “your kind” where disenfranchised? White people around me lost their jobs, but they did alright. The mexicans were not doing “OK”. They formed gangs all the time and acted like hoodlums. > [@](#): > > Have you read ‘Mein Kampf’ by Hitler? If so, did you understand it? I’ve read bits and pieces of it, but not all. The parts I read were easily understood. > [@](#): > > Have you read ‘The Third Reich’ by Müller? If so, did you understand it? Never read. I’m not really into NS cultism. > [@](#): > > Have you visited Dachau, or Birkenau, or Auschwitz? If so, what was your impression and feeling? Nope. > [@](#): > > Have you been to the NSDAP documentation center in Berchtesgaden (Where Hitler used to live and where the Eagles Nest still is)? Did you view the film material collected there? If so, what did you think? Nope. What’s the point of going there? I’m not really interested in NS cultism, like I said. > [@](#): > > Have you ever met an ex-SS officer? If you did, did he seem to think that he had done a good job? What part of the Nazi era and the war did he tell you about? What did you feel about what he told you? Oh yes, I was the Apt Pupil (sarcasm). Lol… no. > [@](#): > > How many concentration camp survivors have you met? Did they show you their tattoos? Why didn’t you believe that their experiences where real? None. > [@](#): > > Finally; what about John Hron? Do you understand your shared guilt in incidents like his murder? What about John Hron? I have no shared guilt, because I wasn’t there and don’t condone illegal activity. I think it’s a rather stupid tactic of leftists to drag out a random “Skin violence” incident and try to smear every white person who has a certain opinion. As I said, do you want me to spam the board with incidences of brutality on whites by non-white gangs and individuals? Want me to start comparing you to ARA gutterpunks? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/104 "2002-10-25T16:52:22Z")
[quoute]50 years ago, people could actually have a home and family with one breadwinner. [/quote] They still can. Of course, it would be a crappy 50s-style shack, with correspondingly crappy furnishings and accoutrements, but it still doesn’t cost very much to live like people did in the 50s. Most people, however, realize that the 50s sucked ass and are willing to work harder to earn the income that allows them to live in the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/105 "2002-10-25T17:19:52Z")
Sorry for the doublepost > [@](#): > > They still can. Of course, it would be a crappy 50s-style shack, with correspondingly crappy furnishings and accoutrements, but it still doesn’t cost very much to live like people did in the 50s. Most people, however, realize that the 50s sucked ass and are willing to work harder to earn the income that allows them to live in the 21st century. No one in my family lived in a “shack” in the 50’s. They lived in nice homes in nice communities and could afford to have multiple children while owning that nice home in a nice community with one breadwinner. They also loved growing up in that decade. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/106 "2002-10-25T17:31:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > **California is also going to be “Nuevo Mexico” in a couple decades, and white people have been moving out of that state in droves. Entire sections of California resemble a third-world country. GDP is not everything. Quality of life is, and the quality of life to be found in the “multicultural” California areas is not worth it, IMO.** Even if California _did_ become “Nuevo Mexico” (never mind the fact that it _was_ part of Mexico in the first place), it doesn’t exactly help your argument that “Nuevo Mexico” has a stronger economy than just about every “white” nation on the planet. \*\* > [@](#): > > Even if they had, WN does not = skinhead. You seem to have a very hard time digesting this information\*\* Yes it does. Why do I keep mentioning that? Because it illustrates the logical inconsitency of your claims. “_We_ aren’t all the same, but _they_ are!” See, you seem to have a very difficult time of your own digesting a couple simple facts: 1. Correlation does not equate to causation. 2. Averages do not translate to specifics. The converse of both of those points are the logical foundations (such as they are) of the entire WN / skinhead / neo-Nazi / whatever-the-hell-you-want-call-yourselves movement. Every one of your arguments is rooted in one of those two fallacies. There _can_ be good arguments made about the effects of unrestricted immigration, or the decline of the status of “family” and its effects on a nation and its people, and so on. But you can’t make them. Why? Because you are too hung up on your neo-Nazi conceptualizations like “third world”, “race”, and “Jew”. Any argument you put forth, because of your chosen philosphy, must start with one of those buzzwords, proceed to “\ are _eeee_-vil”, and thence to “they are thus the cause of all that is wrong in the world today.” You also neglect that fact that such hatred as you and your kind have towards your fellow non-white man will not simply vanish overnight. Suppose you _do_ manage to get your precious “white Nation”. What then? Without the Jews, blacks, Mexicans, multiculturalism, and so on to blame your troubles on, you would, I have no doubt, waste no time descending on the perceived weaker elements of your own “perfect” society. Starting, no doubt, with the disabled and mentally ill, then proceeding upward through various economic classes. Contrary to what you may believe, the world and its issues cannot be broken down in to black and white (neither literally nor figuratively). Until you realize that social problems are complex (if for no other reason than the people which make up societies are complex), and that there _are no easy fixes_, your arguments will remain flawed. Likewise, until you come to that realization, you will be unable to think outside of your neo-Nazi box, and will remain nothing more than a brainwashed tool. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/107 "2002-10-25T18:01:26Z")
> [@](#): > > They still can. Of course, it would be a crappy 50s-style shack, with correspondingly crappy furnishings and accoutrements, but it still doesn’t cost very much to live like people did in the 50s. **Outraged gay guy** Blond wood, Mission-style furniture is utterly FABulous! Next thing I know, you’ll be trashing Douglas Sirk movies! [/outraged gay guy] But yeah, in the Fifities people generally had a lower standard of living than they do now. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/108 "2002-10-25T18:04:40Z")
**Sionnach** replied to me: \*“There’s simply no historical support for any claim of some traditionally ‘95% white’ nation in North America. Maybe you were thinking of Iceland?” Actually, the accurate number is closer to 90% white in 1950, or 89.5% to be exact.\* No, it isn’t—if you’re talking about the USA (which, from your reference to the (US) 1965 Immigration Act, seems to be the case). Heck, in 1950, black people **alone** made up about [11%](http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/african/afam008.html) of the entire US population, and that’s not counting the non-negligible minorities of Hispanics, Asians, Jews, Amerindians, and other ethnic groups that you describe as “non-white”. You are not helping your argument (not that anything really **could** help your argument) by relying on made-up numbers that are not supported by historical fact. And as other people here have pointed out, the type of racial exclusionism you’re promoting has been practiced in the past against just about every “white” group that you now view as part of a “White Nation”. Your Gaelic username “Sionnach” suggests that you may identify as Irish-descended; well, just check out some [opinions](http://migration.ucc.ie/conferences%20and%20publications/conferences/scattering/conferencepapers/Prof.%20Jay%20P.%20Dolan.htm) of the North American white community in the past about Irish immigrants: > [@](#): > > In the late 1790s when the new nation was undergoing growing pains Congress passed legislation known as the Alien and Sedition acts that sought to keep out undesirable immigrants. Heading the list were, as one Boston Brahmin put it, “hordes of wild Irishmen.” […] The American minister to Great Britain spoke for many Federalists when he stated that “the principles and habits” of these fugitive Irish rebels " would be pernicious to the order and industry of our people." Such strong feeling against the United Irishmen in particular and the Irish in general was the catalyst that enabled the passage of Alien and Sedition acts. […] > > The anti-Irish climate of Boston became most virulent during the 1840s and 50s when the Know Nothing political party gained power in the state. The Know Nothings were opposed to the immigration of foreigners, especially Irish Catholics, and believed that “Americans must rule America.” […] > > Promoting an anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic platform the Know Nothing party gained spectacular success in many cities. “No Irish Need Apply” notices were commonplace in New York, Philadelphia, and other cities where the Irish settled. […] In the South the prejudice against the Irish took on a different twist. They were often compared with the slaves and were even called “niggers turned inside out” while the slaves were referred to as “smoked Irish.” An English traveller noted that both Irish and African Americans “were viewed as outcasts.” To be called an Irishman, noted the visitor, “is almost as great an insult as to be stigmatised as a nigger feller.” Some jobs were even thought to be too dangerous for the slave population whereas no job was too risky for the Irish. They were preferred to the slaves when it came to working on the docks because, as one official put it, “The niggers are worth too much to be risked here; if the Paddies are knocked overboard, or get their backs broke, nobody loses anything.” […] > > In the 1850s anti-Irish prejudice took on a new dimension. Prior to this time the common belief was that despite their ignorance and brutishness, the Irish could become educated and civilised. […] In the 1850s the element of race entered the picture and it transformed the image of the Irish. The stereotype of the Irish as ignorant, brutal, and depraved was now said to be rooted in their very nature and no amount of education would cure this. They were a hopelessly inferior race. Pretty, huh? “Encouraged to assimilate”, my left foot. And of course, these earlier bigots also had plenty of anecdotal evidence about Irish laziness, Irish drunkenness, Irish gangs, Irish violence, etc., to justify their opposition to Irish immigration and social equality, the same way **Sionnach** now complains about “hoodlum gangs of blacks and mestizos”. In short, now that the Irish and other “inferior” ethnic groups have managed to fight their way past this racial bigotry and get themselves racially identified with the “white” groups that despised and oppressed them, their descendants of **Sionnach** ’s sort see nothing wrong with spewing the exact same sort of prejudice and hatred against more recent immigrants. Yup, the Know Nothings are back, all right. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/109 "2002-10-25T18:10:26Z")
Ah, the central premise of Sionnach’s mindset at last appears. > [@](#): > > What’s so great about “culture clashes” that leftists think that a “culture clash” in every white neighborhood is a good thing? Well, here’s a news flash: some of us think “different” is good. Interesting. Energizing. “Cool”. Evidently you don’t. In your laments for an earlier, simpler time back in the 1950s, I detect the querulous tone of the Old Man who thinks things were better back in the Old Days–Gramps, who would rather be left alone with his TV and his Wonder Bread and his newspaper. “We don’t need none of them “furriners” coming in here, with their funny-smelling food, _changing_ things, being _different_.” You have the Old Man’s fear of things that are “different”. End of discussion, as far as I’m concerned. I’ve never been able to convince any Old Men that “different” might be “good”, let alone “better”. Except to ask, “What do you eat–do you eat spaghetti, tacos, pizza, curry? What comprises the non-multicultural 100% Caucasian diet these days?” Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, I guess. Campbell’s Tomato soup, with Velveeta sandwiches? ---
**Author:** ![DaddyTimesTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@DaddyTimesTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaddyTimesTwo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/110 "2002-10-25T18:12:22Z")
From _minty green_: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 50 years ago, people could actually have a home and family with one breadwinner. > > They still can. Of course, it would be a crappy 50s-style shack, with correspondingly crappy furnishings and accoutrements, but it still doesn’t cost very much to live like people did in the 50s. Most people, however, realize that the 50s sucked ass and are willing to work harder to earn the income that allows them to live in the 21st century. I’m trying to stay out of this discussion as there are not appropriate shower facilities here at work to wash away the smell, but I have to answer both **minty** and **Sionnach**. I imagine that **minty** is making use of hyperbole, but to refute the claim that families can’t live on one salary anymore, here are my circumstances: one wife, two kids, two cars, one four-bedroom two-bath house, one income. And in a nice neighborhood with none of _them_ kind of people\*. 😃 We do not live extra luxurious lives and we don’t have designer labels on all our clothes and the cars aren’t leather-lined European sedans, but we live, believe it or not, _ **within our means** _. It’s a new idea, but it might catch on. \*White Nationalists, of course. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/111 "2002-10-25T18:26:34Z")
Of course I was employing some hyperbole, but the basic point was simple enough: the average American lives FAR better today than they did in the 1950s. But if Sionnach wants to go back to the 50s, a good place to start might be selling her computer and cancelling her ISP. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/112 "2002-10-25T18:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, and in the past, immigrants were all encouraged to assimilate and didn’t have huge amounts of taxpayer social programs to prop them up and attract social leeches. As I pointed out earlier, there are only three groups of immigrants who are not currently embracing assimilation wholeheartedly. (And within those groups there are those who do and those who do not favor assimilation, so one cannot (if one is honest) simply claim that “they” are not assimilating. By using the issues of a couple of specific groups to make wild claims about all of society, you dilute your argument by appearing to fail to understand the issues. As to the social programs “propping them up,” you’ll note in the link I provided earlier that the net result of immigration is an increase in income (resulting in a net increase in taxes recouped by the government). There is a valid place for a discussion of immigration reform. Wild calls to throw them all out and lock the gates simply make it hard to take you seriously (except as a threat against my neighbors). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/113 "2002-10-25T18:30:40Z")
In the past, there were multi-lingual aids as well. I interned at a museum. You had ethnic ghettos and burrows. There was an old sign from the steel plants with warnings in German, Italian, Serbo-Croatian, Polish, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/114 "2002-10-25T18:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Sioannach_ > > [Re: Experiencing violence by people of other skin color/ethnicity] > > A few, but that was common in both cities and towns where almost all the young mexicans formed hoodlum gangs. Only one person I knew was beaten to death by them. Having grown up and lived in several of the largest cities of the world in immigrant areas, affluent suburbs, inner city hustle and bustle I can tell you that you are deeply mistaken. Your experiences of ethnic strife go well beyond the ordinary. Note that you had a friend killed in gang related violence. That’s a pretty rare occurrence. I have lived in the Arab quarters in Paris and Munich. I lived in Stockholm inner city (one of the most violent million inhabitant cities in the western world). Add lots of time spent in LA, New York, London and a handful other odd places. Out of most people I know I am one of the few that had friends who died violent deaths. For reasons of my work and in part just by coincidence I have had dealings with the worst imaginable ethnic and criminal gangs ranging from skinheads to Hells Angels to Yugoslavian Mafia. And even then I don’t know that anyone I knew closely was killed in racial violence. I witnessed lots of racial violence, most of it during my year with the skinheads. I was also acquainted with several people who died violent deaths; none of them except a very dear gay friend killed by a psycho homophobe was hate motivated violence. Yours and my experiences are the stuff that most people only read about in the papers. Your view of criminality and violence is deeply flawed by your personal experiences. > [@](#): > > [Re: if these incidents had involved big burly Aryan Brotherhood Romper Stomper Skins?] > > The point is that none of those incidents did involve wanna-be skins. Even if they had, WN does not = skinhead. You seem to have a very hard time digesting this information. So no, I would not hate WN, whites, or men if that occured, because the majority of whites and WN don’t form hoodlum gangs like the blacks and mestizos do. As a matter of fact, even the young Asians form huge gangs to smuggle drugs. Young lady, you are deeply mistaken as to how deep my understanding of the white supremacy movement goes. I prefer to not engage in debating the semantics of classification since it is a rather internal matter to you guys, for the rest of the world the ideology is what counts. That some are directly criminal and others are not is incidental. The fact that you use the, in White Nationalist circles, oft-brandied term ‘wanna-be’ is very telling. As most of the Aryan ‘elite’ you look to the more unruly elements of your movement as not worthy, not really part of your crowd. I have news for you; it’s the other way around, you are part of their movement. In the end, whatever group or level you choose to ascribe to it’s just another shade of neo-Nazism. That aside you just contradicted yourself. White ethnically constructed hoodlum gangs are usually referred to as skinheads - and don’t even get me started on whether or not they engage in criminal activities. > [@](#): > > [Re: involvement in ethnical violence as a child] > > Merely living in a multicultural society was how I was involved. That is why I think they are inherently unstable and doomed to collapse. Once again I have to point out that your experiences of ethnic based and/or gang related violence goes far beyond the ordinary. > [@](#): > > [Re Social situation and wealth] > > I used to take classes, but for now am a stay-at-home wife until I get a part-time job. > […] > The financial situation is good. My husband has a job that pays decently. The standard I live in now is perfectly fine for the moment, besides taxes being incredibly high. As an aside; is your husband of the same ideological conviction as you are? > [@](#): > > [Re: Job loss and ethnicity] > > White people around me lost their jobs, but they did alright. The mexicans were not doing “OK”. They formed gangs all the time and acted like hoodlums. And the white little fellows joined the movement – sometimes as skinheads, or became ‘gutter punks’. Right? > [@](#): > > [Re: ‘Mein Kampf’] > > I’ve read bits and pieces of it, but not all. The parts I read were easily understood. You should read all of it. It describes your ideology. When you do keep in mind what it says about you as a non-German. > [@](#): > > [Re: ‘The Third Reich’] > > Never read. I’m not really into NS cultism. No cultism involved, dear. If “Mein Kampf” is a defining document of your ideology, this one is a founding one. Read it and learn what your ideology really preaches and get back to us on all of the hand-wringing you’ve been doing regarding who gets to live and who doesn’t, who gets sterilized and who doesn’t and all that. Don’t tell me about the shades of brown-shirt politics. Either you are with them or you’re against. > [@](#): > > Re: Visiting Dachau, or Birkenau, or Auschwitz.Nope. But the Holocaust is still just a fabrication? Yet you didn’t check for yourself. Hmmm… I checked. The smell of burnt flesh and the sweet smell of molten human fat still emanates from the wooden beams in the crematoriums. The mountains of human hair, glasses, shoes, dentures, and so on at Auschwitz all came from a collective of hairdressers, second hand stores and the Polish Dentist Association, or what? > [@](#): > > [Re: Visiting the NSDAP documentation center in Berchtesgaden] > > Nope. What’s the point of going there? I’m not really interested in NS cultism, like I said. Well… I didn’t suggest you go there to celebrate Nazism. I’d be rather surprised if that’s what would happen. I’d rather expect you to be shocked at what you would find out about the origins of your ideology. It’s not pretty to see the NSDAP from the inside so to say. In any case Berchtesgaden is an absolutely gorgeous spot on Earth so if you happen by I recommend a visit. > [@](#): > > [Re: Meeting an ex-SS officer] > > Oh yes, I was the Apt Pupil (sarcasm). Lol… no. Again you misunderstand my motive. I have met a few actually. If you would gain their trust enough for them to tell you about it all I can assure you that it would be lesson in everything _except_ the greatness of the ‘white race.’ Out of the ones I have met and who have told me their stories all had deeply changed and all told of the absolute horror of what they witnessed. I especially note the uncle of a very good friend who ended up in concentration camp himself. He started out as a good little convicted White Nationalist, but somewhere around early 1943 he couldn’t take it anymore. He was stationed in Amsterdam leading a small unit that was in charge of the deportation of Jews in parts of the city. Instead of doing his job he started helping Jews get out of the country. He managed to save a few thousand from deportation to the death camps. He was eventually found out when a subordinate officer squealed on him, and spent the rest of the war in Dachau. Fascinating man, since he can tell you the story from all sides. You should meet him, I doubt that you’d get along very well though – I mean you guys already went after him for being Jew-lover. > [@](#): > > [Re: How many concentration camp survivors have you met? > > None. Is that your basis for disbelieving the Holocaust? That you haven’t met any survivors? > [@](#): > > [Re: John Hron.] > > What about John Hron? I have no shared guilt, because I wasn’t there and don’t condone illegal activity. I think it’s a rather stupid tactic of leftists to drag out a random “Skin violence” incident and try to smear every white person who has a certain opinion. I’m not smearing anyone of any specific skin color for anything. I am merely saying that the guys who killed John Hron belong to the same movement as you. They used the same arguments to motivate their killing another human being as you do to advocate oppression, deportation and a variety of other things that are illegal according to international law. You’re all advocating breaking laws, the only difference is that they took the matter to a rather more practical level and actually went ahead with their plans. If it wasn’t for you and the other somewhat less maladjusted elements in your movement these hoodlums wouldn’t have a foot to stand on and most likely John would be alive today. Maybe these guys were doomed to be rotten apples anyway, but they would sure enough be less dangerous to society if they wouldn’t have been urged on by the disgusting messages of hatred and intolerance forwarded by the mass-psychosis that you all embrace. > [@](#): > > [Re: John Hron contd.] > > As I said, do you want me to spam the board with incidences of brutality on whites by non-white gangs and individuals? Want me to start comparing you to ARA gutterpunks? You’re spinning. Drink some water. Take a Tylenol or something. I repeat: **John Hron, a young white boy, was murdered by White Nationalists because they _perceived_ him as being of a different race and because he stood up against _your_ ideology.** Whatever other crime that happened to have involved several ethnicities is completely irrelevant, especially since no one will claim, certainly I won’t, that two wrongs makes a right. As for the last little silliness, I do not support any agenda of revolution. I despise extreme left anarcho-revolutionism almost as much as I despise your ideology. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/115 "2002-10-25T19:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, here’s a news flash: some of us think “different” is good. Interesting. Energizing. “Cool”. Evidently you don’t. Yes, ethnic gang activity is so energizing and “cool”. People stabbing each other and smuggling drugs around is “cool”. I haven’t seen anyone here that thinks about the future of their nation. All they care about is “me me me” (I can’t live without Ethiopian Stew) and “now now now” (I’m fine now, who cares about future generations?) and “coolness”. Who cares about high crime and violence that follows immigration floods? It’s all “cool”. > [@](#): > > I imagine that minty is making use of hyperbole, but to refute the claim that families can’t live on one salary anymore, here are my circumstances: one wife, two kids, two cars, one four-bedroom two-bath house, one income. And in a nice neighborhood with none of them kind of people Good for you, but that would be actually be a luxury for many people. What job do you have? How many years of university traning did it take? > [@](#): > > Except to ask, “What do you eat–do you eat spaghetti, tacos, pizza, curry? What comprises the non-multicultural 100% Caucasian diet these days?” > > Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, I guess. Campbell’s Tomato soup, with Velveeta sandwiches? I eat anything I can cook, which is a lot of very good food. I don’t need the help of immigrants to cook any of it. I also take note that some of you people _are_ totally brainwashed into thinking that people of European descent have no worthy culture of their own. According to the way some of you go on, America and Europe must have been _really awful_ places before they started importing asians, mexicans, africans, and muslims. > [@](#): > > But if Sionnach wants to go back to the 50s, a good place to start might be selling her computer and cancelling her ISP. I would cancel my ISP instantly if it were accompanied by living in a nation like that which existed in the 1950’s. > [@](#): > > As I pointed out earlier, there are only three groups of immigrants who are not currently embracing assimilation wholeheartedly. (And within those groups there are those who do and those who do not favor assimilation, so one cannot (if one is honest) simply claim that “they” are not assimilating. By using the issues of a couple of specific groups to make wild claims about all of society, you dilute your argument by appearing to fail to understand the issues. The largest groups of immigrants happen to be the ones that want to carve nations within a nation. > [@](#): > > Your view of criminality and violence is deeply flawed by your personal experiences. How is my view of criminality flawed when my view is backed up by extremely high rates of non-white on white violence compared to white on non-white violence? It looks to me that my view is grounded in reality while your view likely comes from “spending some time” in a few cosmopolite areas enjoying some “exciting multicultural cuisine”, then claiming that there is no high rate of ethnic crime. > [@](#): > > Young lady, you are deeply mistaken as to how deep my understanding of the white supremacy movement goes. I prefer to not engage in debating the semantics of classification since it is a rather internal matter to you guys, for the rest of the world the ideology is what counts. That some are directly criminal and others are not is incidental. The fact that you use the, in White Nationalist circles, oft-brandied term ‘wanna-be’ is very telling. As most of the Aryan ‘elite’ you look to the more unruly elements of your movement as not worthy, not really part of your crowd. I have news for you; it’s the other way around, you are part of their movement. In the end, whatever group or level you choose to ascribe to it’s just another shade of neo-Nazism. > > That aside you just contradicted yourself. White ethnically constructed hoodlum gangs are usually referred to as skinheads - and don’t even get me started on whether or not they engage in criminal activities. More cut-and-pasting from ADL? This is a common tactic by you people, and it’s frankly getting old. Take every pro-white group out there, pull out the “violent skinhead” bogeyman, then say that all pro-white groups are violent skins. End result: Whites are too indimidated and cowed to stand up for themselves because they don’t want to be called “nazis” by the almighty “enlightened” liberal elite. > [@](#): > > Once again I have to point out that your experiences of ethnic based and/or gang related violence goes far beyond the ordinary. Actually, my experiences were so normal that they were cliche. > [@](#): > > As an aside; is your husband of the same ideological conviction as you are? We both sway in the same direction, but have different opinions on some minor details. He’s more moderate than I on some points, yet he grew up in a safer neighborhood and went to better schools (which were majority white). When he went to California he thought the place was pretty dirty and ridiculous, so if he grew up there he would probably be less moderate. > [@](#): > > And the white little fellows joined the movement – sometimes as skinheads, or became ‘gutter punks’. Right? Whites formed gangs as self-defense from the mestizo hoodlums. When my mother was growing up in the city, where were no white or brown gangs because there was no huge immigrant culture. > [@](#): > > You should read all of it. It describes your ideology. When you do keep in mind what it says about you as a non-German. No, it does not describe “my” ideology. If you care to keep up this conversation, you will refrain from this incessant attempt to pigeon-hole me into the NS cult. > [@](#): > > No cultism involved, dear. If “Mein Kampf” is a defining document of your ideology, this one is a founding one. Read it and learn what your ideology really preaches and get back to us on all of the hand-wringing you’ve been doing regarding who gets to live and who doesn’t, who gets sterilized and who doesn’t and all that. Don’t tell me about the shades of brown-shirt politics. Either you are with them or you’re against. “My ideology” was common until a few decades ago in the US. No Mein Kampf involved. My ideology stems from a belief that western civilization must be preserved and that my children must grow up in safe neighborhoods in a safe nation with a government that works for their interests, and not for the interests of destroying the nation by flooding it with third-world immigrants and imposing cultural marxism on everyone. > [@](#): > > But the Holocaust is still just a fabrication? Yet you didn’t check for yourself. Hmmm… I checked. The smell of burnt flesh and the sweet smell of molten human fat still emanates from the wooden beams in the crematoriums. The mountains of human hair, glasses, shoes, dentures, and so on at Auschwitz all came from a collective of hairdressers, second hand stores and the Polish Dentist Association, or what? Yes, and Elie Weasel said he saw geysers of blood. So what? > [@](#): > > Again you misunderstand my motive. I have met a few actually. If you would gain their trust enough for them to tell you about it all I can assure you that it would be lesson in everything except the greatness of the ‘white race.’ Out of the ones I have met and who have told me their stories all had deeply changed and all told of the absolute horror of what they witnessed. I especially note the uncle of a very good friend who ended up in concentration camp himself. He started out as a good little convicted White Nationalist, but somewhere around early 1943 he couldn’t take it anymore. He was stationed in Amsterdam leading a small unit that was in charge of the deportation of Jews in parts of the city. Instead of doing his job he started helping Jews get out of the country. He managed to save a few thousand from deportation to the death camps. He was eventually found out when a subordinate officer squealed on him, and spent the rest of the war in Dachau. Fascinating man, since he can tell you the story from all sides. You should meet him, I doubt that you’d get along very well though – I mean you guys already went after him for being Jew-lover. What does all this have to do with preserving my culture in a world where all whites will be a minority in their own nation in the future? > [@](#): > > Is that your basis for disbelieving the Holocaust? That you haven’t met any survivors? No. What does the “holocaust” have to do with preserving Western civilization in a world where our countries will all be paralyzed by competing nationalities and ethnicities? > [@](#): > > I’m not smearing anyone of any specific skin color for anything. I am merely saying that the guys who killed John Hron belong to the same movement as you. No, they did not. Any movement I join does not advocate criminal activity. Do yell at environmentalist groups because some fringe activists are guilty of **bombing**? > [@](#): > > They used the same arguments to motivate their killing another human being as you do to advocate oppression, deportation and a variety of other things that are illegal according to international law. There is no such thing as “international law”. It’s a fraud, and you’re a fool if you believe it unless you like the idea of “One World Government”, which many leftists seem to be love. > [@](#): > > You’re all advocating breaking laws, the only difference is that they took the matter to a rather more practical level and actually went ahead with their plans. What laws? Are you against the idea of communities making their own immigration laws? > [@](#): > > If it wasn’t for you and the other somewhat less maladjusted elements in your movement these hoodlums wouldn’t have a foot to stand on and most likely John would be alive today. Maybe these guys were doomed to be rotten apples anyway, but they would sure enough be less dangerous to society if they wouldn’t have been urged on by the disgusting messages of hatred and intolerance forwarded by the mass-psychosis that you all embrace. **Every group has a violent fringe. According to you, there should be no political action because of a violent fringe. You not only support One World Government, but total thought tyranny.** > [@](#): > > John Hron, a young white boy, was murdered by White Nationalists because they perceived him as being of a different race and because he stood up against your ideology. Whatever other crime that happened to have involved several ethnicities is completely irrelevant, especially since no one will claim, certainly I won’t, that two wrongs makes a right. **My ideology does not include violenty breaking the laws**. According to your logic, the EPA is guilty because of the actions of Earth First. > [@](#): > > As for the last little silliness, I do not support any agenda of revolution. In that case, you are against the abolishing of affirmative action, you are against the right of communities to self-determination and rights to live only amongst their own people if they like, you are against the rights of whites to make a stand against disproportionate interracial crime against them, you are against the rights of people within a nation to stop outright _invasions_ of non-assimilating immigrants even if they have criminal records. **I don’t think you sound very fair.** ---
**Author:** ![Sionnach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Sionnach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sionnach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/116 "2002-10-25T19:48:57Z")
By the way, does every marxist, socialist, communist who comes to this board get berated for being guilty for the crimes of Bolshevism, Stalin and Mao? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/117 "2002-10-25T20:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > By the way, does every marxist, socialist, communist who comes to this board get berated for being guilty for the crimes of Bolshevism, Stalin and Mao? Hoo boy, do they ever! Do a search for communism threads and see. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/118 "2002-10-25T20:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I also take note that some of you people are totally brainwashed into thinking that people of European descent have no worthy culture of their own. Bullshit. Show me one person who has said any such thing in any of these threads. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/119 "2002-10-25T20:30:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **I don’t think you sound very fair.** oh my dear sweet god my irony meter just EXPLODED Sionnach, will you listen to yourself? Are any of the following statements “fair”? > [@](#): > > \*\*More cut-and-pasting from ADL? This is a common tactic by you people, and it’s frankly getting old. > [@](#): > > It looks to me that my view is grounded in reality while your view likely comes from “spending some time” in a few cosmopolite areas enjoying some “exciting multicultural cuisine” > [@](#): > > I also take note that some of you people are totally brainwashed into thinking that people of European descent have no worthy culture of their own. According to the way some of you go on, America and Europe must have been really awful places before they started importing asians, mexicans, africans, and muslims. > [@](#): > > I haven’t seen anyone here that thinks about the future of their nation. > [@](#): > > All they care about is “me me me” (I can’t live without Ethiopian Stew) and “now now now” (I’m fine now, who cares about future generations?) and “coolness”. \*\* You are coming across as a nasty, sneering, whining teenager with no real wish to debate, especially when you say such completely stupid things as, “There’s no such thing as international law.” Needless to say, there’s a limit to the amount of time we here at the SDMB have to spend talking to nasty, sneering, whining teenagers with no real wish to debate. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522/120 "2002-10-25T20:35:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sionnach \* > \*\*By the way, does every marxist, socialist, communist who comes to this board get berated for being guilty for the crimes of Bolshevism, Stalin and Mao? \*\* Do a search on my name and that of **Olentzero**. Then search for the terms: Lenin Kerensky Bolshevik Russian Revolution Romanov Nicholas II Tsar Etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-nationalism-part-ii/133522.md?page=7)