# White people getting killed by police under questionable circumstances - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733 "2015-04-28T18:29:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/41 "2015-04-29T00:04:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And it should have done if it was an honest and non-sensationalist presentation of data. Not necessarily. Mind you, I’m not disagreeing that there needs to be way, way more thorough and systematic collection and analysis of data on police shootings. But there is nothing intrinsically more “honest” or “non-sensationalist” about comparing racial disparity in shooting to racial disparity in crime rates than about simply pointing out any such disparity as a separate fact. Especially when one takes into account the fact that [racial disparity in crime rates is affected by racial bias in conviction and sentencing,](http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/d/download_file_9477.pdf) we can’t just assume that the fact that black males are convicted of crimes at a higher rate than white males automatically explains why police are killing them at a higher rate. Lott’s critique of the ProPublica analysis based on a very selective focus on racial differences in criminal conviction rates, while ignoring other factors that influence those differences, is no more “honest” or “non-sensationalist” than you claim the original article to be. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/42 "2015-04-29T00:15:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Not necessarily. Mind you, I’m not disagreeing that there needs to be way, way more thorough and systematic collection and analysis of data on police shootings. But there is nothing intrinsically more “honest” or “non-sensationalist” about comparing racial disparity in shooting to racial disparity in crime rates than about simply pointing out any such disparity as a separate fact. There is. If some group commits crimes at 10 times the rate of another group, then it is natural, and not surprising, that they would encounter the police 10 times more and get shot by the police 10 times more. Roughly 10 times of course. Plus/minus. Propublica not mentioning and not adjusting for it is pure dishonesty and sensationalism. Propublica not mentioning that the data set they worked from is utterly statistically invalid, since it is only from 1.2% of self-selected police departments in the country and heavily slanted to urban police departments is even more dishonest. And everyone repeating the bullshit “21 times” as if it was actually true after these deficiencies are pointed out is just as dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/43 "2015-04-29T00:32:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If some group commits crimes at 10 times the rate of another group, then it is natural, and not surprising, that they would encounter the police 10 times more and get shot by the police 10 times more. […] > > Propublica not mentioning and not adjusting for it is pure dishonesty and sensationalism. Given that _all we know about how often any group “commits crimes” is how often members of that group are **arrested** and **convicted** for crimes,_ and that _racial bias demonstrably influences arrest and conviction rates,_ **it is not legitimate to use arrest and conviction rates unquestioningly as a reliable proxy for genuine group differences in criminality**. Your (and Lott’s) not mentioning and not adjusting for that is pure dishonesty and sensationalism. Really, **Terr** , you don’t have a leg to stand on here. I’ve already pointed out that the ProPublica article itself already acknowledged that the data is very defective and consequently any conclusions drawn from it must be very provisional and oversimplified. Your eagerness to argue that it must be solely black people’s own disproportionate lawlessness that’s getting them disproportionately shot by cops is just highlighting the superficiality and distortion of your own approach to the data. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/44 "2015-04-29T00:36:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Given that _all we know about how often any group “commits crimes” is how often members of that group are **arrested** and **convicted** for crimes,_ and that _racial bias demonstrably influences arrest and conviction rates,_ **it is not legitimate to use arrest and conviction rates unquestioningly as a reliable proxy for genuine group differences in criminality**. It is not legitimate not to even attempt to adjust for it. > [@](#): > > I’ve already pointed out that the ProPublica article itself already acknowledged that the data is very defective and consequently any conclusions drawn from it must be very provisional and oversimplified. If your data is “very defective” you should not present conclusions from it at all. And I didn’t see you mention the “very defectiveness” of the data in your original post. In fact, you presented it as “from the data as a whole”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/45 "2015-04-29T01:48:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And I didn’t see you mention the “very defectiveness” of the data in your original post. In fact, you presented it as “from the data as a whole”. You’re really reaching now. I was simply pointing out that larger trend of racial disparity in comparison to your four isolated incidents (that you mistakenly believed were five because you didn’t notice that one of the shooting victims survived). I certainly wasn’t making any claim that “the data as a whole” have been thoroughly sifted to produce incontrovertible conclusions. My use of noncommittal terms like “it appears” and “indicates” rather than “it is proved” or “demonstrates” or “establishes” should have tipped you off as to that. Mind you, I’m not chastising you for posting a few isolated incidents instead of trying to draw statistically sound general conclusions from as much available data as possible, because isolated incidents were what the OP was inviting. But it was definitely reasonable to put them in the context of the broader picture of statistics on racial disparity in police shootings, even if that broader picture is admittedly still very blurry due to the defectiveness of the data. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/46 "2015-04-29T01:49:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Given that _all we know about how often any group “commits crimes” is how often members of that group are **arrested** and **convicted** for crimes,_ and that _racial bias demonstrably influences arrest and conviction rates,_ **it is not legitimate to use arrest and conviction rates unquestioningly as a reliable proxy for genuine group differences in criminality**. That’s not all we know about who commits crimes, not even slightly. There are victim surveys, surveys where people anonymously say what, if any, criminal behaviour they engage in, sociological studies of various kinds, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/47 "2015-04-29T01:53:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Given that all we know about how often any group “commits crimes” is how often members of that group are arrested and convicted for crimes, and that racial bias demonstrably influences arrest and conviction rates, it is not legitimate to use arrest and conviction rates unquestioningly as a reliable proxy for genuine group differences in criminality. > > It is not legitimate not to even attempt to adjust for it. You realize that you just agreed with me that you and Lott are trying to make an argument that’s not legitimate, right? You don’t get to decide that you can look at only the statistically confounding factors that you think support your point while disregarding the ones that undermine it. If you think it’s mandatory to include racial disparities in arrest and conviction rates in any discussion of racial disparities in police shooting rates, then it’s also mandatory to include racial-bias impacts on racially-disparate arrest and conviction rates in such discussions too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/48 "2015-04-29T01:56:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not all we know about who commits crimes, not even slightly. There are victim surveys, surveys where people anonymously say what, if any, criminal behaviour they engage in, sociological studies of various kinds, and so forth. Very true. I meant that arrest and conviction data are all that constitute the _legal record_ of crime commission, and they are by no means infallible or comprehensive guides to what crimes are _actually_ being committed. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/49 "2015-04-29T02:54:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You’re really reaching now. “Now”? Reaching is pretty much all **Terr** is capable of. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/50 "2015-04-29T04:58:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > We keep hearing about all these black people getting killed by police under debatable circumstances. > > There must be similar incidents happening where the victims are white, right? > > Assuming there are, that’s what this thread is for. Yes, because there’s roving bands of black cops looking to blow off nuggets in whitey. I’ve heard this same thing on conservative talk radio and it’s a pointless argument. There is not enough history of systematic, nationwide abuse of economically and historically oppressed white people by police officers that would cloud every white suspect death with suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/51 "2015-04-29T04:58:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You realize that you just agreed with me that you and Lott are trying to make an argument that’s not legitimate, right? > > You don’t get to decide that you can look at only the statistically confounding factors that you think support your point while disregarding the ones that undermine it. > > If you think it’s mandatory to include racial disparities in arrest and conviction rates in any discussion of racial disparities in police shooting rates, then it’s also mandatory to include racial-bias impacts on racially-disparate arrest and conviction rates in such discussions too. First of all, you are not allowed to draw conclusions from a statistically invalid data set. Second, it is mandatory to include racial disparities in crime rates when discussing racial disparities in shooting rates, because one obviously influences the other. The arrest and conviction rates are an obvious proxy for crime rates (unless you can find a better one). If you’d like to adjust crime rates by “racial bias” feel free to do so (if you can quantify it), but not adjusting for the crime rates at all is dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/52 "2015-04-29T15:25:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As [John Lott](http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/john-lott-dangerous-distortions-cops-shooting-black-men-article-1.2030545) has documented But what does Mary Rosh have to say? 😃 Seriously, “John Lott” and “has documented” don’t fit together in a meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/53 "2015-04-29T15:29:12Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > We already have this thread [\*\* Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread.\*\*](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=736919) , it includes all civilians, Why does Whitey get his own thread? Because it seems that every time lately that you hear about one of these police killings that makes no sense, it’s always a black guy on the receiving end. So I was honestly wondering, how often does this happen to whites? But no, I wasn’t going to go through \>2100 posts in the other thread to try to sort out a particular subset of those incidents. If you think that’s a good approach, I’m not stopping you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/54 "2015-04-29T15:38:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But what does Mary Rosh have to say? 😃 > > Seriously, “John Lott” and “has documented” don’t fit together in a meaningful way. Sure. Because “ProPublica” is an extremely reliable source. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/55 "2015-04-29T15:41:02Z")
> [@Cowboy8467](#): > > There is one legitimate case I can think, and I’m only aware of it because it happened in my county. > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-unaccountable-death-of-john-geer/2014/09/05/29d36d96-339a-11e4-a723-fa3895a25d02\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-unaccountable-death-of-john-geer/2014/09/05/29d36d96-339a-11e4-a723-fa3895a25d02_story.html) I don’t think this got into **Kimstu** ’s list, so [August 2013] ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/56 "2015-04-29T15:42:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. Because “ProPublica” is an extremely reliable source. Well, yeah. And…? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/57 "2015-04-29T15:45:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, yeah. And…? Well, no. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/58 "2015-04-29T15:46:58Z")
> [@pool](#): > > [http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/14/why-did-a-culpepper-cop-kill-a-retired-s](http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/14/why-did-a-culpepper-cop-kill-a-retired-s) > > Cop kills retired Sunday school teacher in church parking lot, he claims she rolled up her window and drove off with his arm caught, at least one witness completely denies that’s what happened. [February 2012] ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/59 "2015-04-29T15:50:35Z")
So far: 2015: 0 2014: 2 2013: 1 2012: 3 2011: 1 … 2006: 1 It happens, but so far, apparently quite infrequently. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733/60 "2015-04-29T15:59:56Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So far: > > 2015: 0 > 2014: 2 > 2013: 1 > 2012: 3 > 2011: 1 > … > 2006: 1 > > It happens, but so far, apparently quite infrequently. That’s just stupid. This is just a sampling. If you like here is another few that I found in another minute of googling: [http://theexaminer.com/stories/news/out-pocket](http://theexaminer.com/stories/news/out-pocket) > **[Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer in Dallas](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/man-dies-in-dallas-officer-involved-shooting/118045/)** > > Relatives of an unarmed man killed by a Dallas police officer Sunday are demanding answers about his death. [http://rollingout.com/news/female-police-officer-charged-killing-unarmed-white-man-fatal-shooting/](http://rollingout.com/news/female-police-officer-charged-killing-unarmed-white-man-fatal-shooting/) It happens all the time. If you expect that someone will scour the Internet for you and give you a hundred incidents, you would have to pay for the work. If you’d like, I will email you my hourly rate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-getting-killed-by-police-under-questionable-circumstances-the-omnibus-thread/718733.md?page=4)