# White people voicing non-white characters **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861 "2020-06-24T22:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/102 "2020-06-29T16:56:01Z")
For UltraVires - The component that you seem to be missing is the different experiences of those in power and privilege vs. those not in power and privilege. So, in a very rough reading of the rules: - White actors shouldn’t portray other races, but other races can portray traditionally white characters or historical figures (Hamilton). - From your discussion, religion is not (quite yet) as hard-stop as race in terms of actors and portrayals. The example of Tony Shalhoub, who is Arabic, playing Jewish in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. - Gender and sexuality are trending in the direction of exclusivity in casting, but aren’t there yet. We will still see straight actors playing LGBTQ character. In these scenarios, can you pick out which side is considered in power and privilege vs. which side is not? I bet you can. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/103 "2020-06-29T17:27:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@UltraVires](#): > > > > Could someone humor me and tell me why this is bad? > > …perhaps you could (and I don’t mean this in a sarcastic way at all) read the OP? Then maybe read the rest of the thread? > > Because Jenny Slate explained exactly why she has done this, and other people in this thread have explained why they “think this is bad”, Except that much of what I see in the OP and many of the responses is skepticism that there actually is anything wrong with it, and that the reasons given by Jenny Slate are valid. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/104 "2020-06-29T17:38:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This happens again again by many well meaning but clearly clueless people. Not unlike the voice actor from the OP. I don’t know who you gotta be not to realize that this is completely cringe worthy and entirely missing the point. What ever it is that you realized about yourself. What ever dark corner of your soul you’ve discovered. What ever guilt you might be feeling for things you’ve said or done in the past that were bigoted in some way. Feel them. By all means. Learn from them. But for god’s sake, STFU and don’t go looking for praise from people who just told you what you may have done wrong. Fuck. How are they not embarrassed? I just think we fundamentally disagree on how embarrassing this is. I’m glad she did and I’m glad she spoke out about it. She started a conversation on it and a lot of people of color have been happy that has happened. Simply privately quitting and the show saying she left without specifying why doesn’t allow that to happen. A lot of black publications have said it’s a good step, and hopefully it brings further into focus the conversation that black voice actors don’t get the opportunities they should. It could be something to kick some production companies to think about these things. Good for Slate and Bell. From theGrio: > **[Jenny Slate, Kristen Bell admit Black voice actors matter – but that doesn’t...](https://thegrio.com/2020/06/26/black-voice-actors-matter/)** > > The solution isn’t just that Black voice actors should be guaranteed Black animated roles. The real problem is that white voices are considered universal. > [@theGrio](#): > > Both of these white actresses have displayed a special kind of allyship that shouldn’t be discounted, but the argument from Slate that “Black characters on animated shows should be played by Black people” is the kind of short-sighted, emotionally driven response that’s allowed animation, and specifically voice work, to remain one of the most racially segregated genres in Hollywood. > > The solution isn’t just that Black voice actors should be guaranteed Black animated roles. The real problem is that white voices are considered UNIVERSAL and are cast as everything, from bi-racial Black girls to robots, aliens, and talking dogs, while Black actors are LUCKY if they can get the few Black roles that are available. So this includes the argument that Slate is slightly short-sighted, but they appreciate what she’s done here and advanced the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/105 "2020-06-29T17:57:27Z")
Poor Mike Henry. He’s gonna need an Obama-level speechwriter for his. Black guy Black kid Gay guy Hispanic housekeeper Pedophile Pedophile’s dog Arab guy Greased up deaf guy ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/106 "2020-06-29T19:03:46Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Gender and sexuality are trending in the direction of exclusivity in casting, but aren’t there yet. We will still see straight actors playing LGBTQ character. I think a fair amount of people are more comfortable with gay characters if they know the actor is actually straight. I’m not sure _Will and Grace_ with 2 gay guys would have gone over as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/107 "2020-06-29T19:12:50Z")
Nice quote, **ISiddiqui** , theGrio managed to formulate the issues involved very well. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/108 "2020-06-29T21:33:30Z")
I’m a white guy, so I’m guessing here, but I’m going to say that while having a black voice actor be given a role previously held by a white actor would be nice, most black people would prefer that the police stop murdering black people in their beds and in the streets. In fact, they’d probably prefer that to getting a Juneteenth Holiday. Why is that so fucking hard to understand? They want to people to stop murdering them, and they get offered Juneteenth mattress sales and a role change in an admittedly highly watched cable show. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/109 "2020-06-29T21:40:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Except that much of what I see in the OP and many of the responses is skepticism that there actually is anything wrong with it, and that the reasons given by Jenny Slate are valid. …Ultravires asked “Could someone humor me and tell me why this is bad?” People have been explaining why they “think that it is bad” throughout the thread. That people have been mocking and disagreeing with those reasons as well throughout the thread doesn’t take away those explanations. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/110 "2020-06-30T03:11:00Z")
You use Arabic and Jewish as though they are mutually exclusive. They are not. Tons of Sephardic Jews are Arabs. Ye, people usually use the word Arab to refer to Christian and Muslim Arabs, but there is nothing inherent in the term that means that. As Peter Griffin has said ‘Take off the funny hats, and I can’t tell you apart.’ ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/111 "2020-06-30T15:54:15Z")
Thank you for adding these details. However, my point stands - Tony is not Jewish (Maronite Catholic) and is portraying a distinctly Jewish character. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/112 "2020-06-30T16:07:04Z")
Arabic Jews are not Arabs. They migrated there during the diaspora and spoke the language but they are not Arabs. > **[Lyn Julius: The term 'Jewish Arabs' ignores the truth of Middle Eastern Jews'...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/apr/03/israel-arab-jewish-mizrahi)** > > Lyn Julius: The term 'Jewish Arabs' ignores the truth of Middle Eastern Jews' unhappy history in Arab lands > [@](#): > > If you add “Arab” Jews to Arab Christians and Muslims, 60% of Israel’s population is Middle Eastern. But the statistic is misleading. Jews may be Arabised, but they are not Arabs. Even many non-Jews living in the Arab world would reject the epithet “Arab”. I know Egyptians who recoil at the term, and Iraqis who reject the values of Bedouin culture. > > Communists and anti-Zionists have long argued on behalf of an “Arab Jewish” identity as a way of repudiating Jewish nationalism and justifying their participation in revolutionary politics. It presupposes that Arabs and Mizrahi Jews are natural allies, and that both are victims of Ashkenazim. > > To refer to “[Jewish Arabs](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/apr/01/middle-east-israel-mizrahi)” is not only to imply that Zionism tore them away from their true homelands for the false lure of a Jewish state, it is to demean them by denying them their own sense of themselves and their unhappy history in Arab lands. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/113 "2020-06-30T17:46:51Z")
Hey guys - Sorry, I really didn’t intend to side-track this discussion into the detailed history of Arab / Jewish identification. My point was about casting trends, and the current acceptable portrayals around religion. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/114 "2020-06-30T17:52:24Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > They want to people to stop murdering them, and they get offered Juneteenth mattress sales and a role change in an admittedly highly watched cable show. I don’t really get the complaint. It’s not as though Slate’s decision is slowing down police reform. It’s not a question of picking one or the other. Her decision does potentially shed more light on the BLM movement and make people more aware of systemic racial issues in American society. No one is presenting this as “Well, guess we’re all done now” and unlike a mattress sale, this decision will have a tangible impact on at least one Black actor (ignoring any additional awareness or effects). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/115 "2020-06-30T20:48:21Z")
Could you argue the point perhaps instead of pointing me somewhere else? I’m with Thudlow\_Boink. Nobody has really given a reason, especially the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/116 "2020-06-30T23:24:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > You use Arabic and Jewish as though they are mutually exclusive. They are not. Tons of Sephardic Jews are Arabs. Ye, people usually use the word Arab to refer to Christian and Muslim Arabs, but there is nothing inherent in the term that means that. As Peter Griffin has said ‘Take off the funny hats, and I can’t tell you apart.’ There’s also nothing inherently different between Serbs and Croats, Russians and Ukrainians, Indians and Pakistanis, or Greeks and Turks, and yet, I wouldn’t recommend confusing one with the other. At least, not to their faces. Ethnicity is _always_ a political issue. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/117 "2020-07-01T02:20:56Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Could someone humor me and tell me why this is bad? An actor’s job, by definition, is to play a character that he is not. I know that Bruce Willis is not John McClain and he is not a bad ass like that in real life. Mr. Willis is not, however, pretending to be black. > [@UltraVires](#): > > So what is wrong by pretending that you are of a different race? As I understand it, you have two core issues. The first being that minorities are underrepresented in “Hollywood” in general and a white person taking a Black role is only making that underrepresentation worse. The other being tied to the idea of white people “wearing” a race or culture for fun with the privilege of taking it off when they are done and reclaiming their white identity and life. Black people (for purposes of this thread) may take offense at the idea of actors playing Black for fun and profit when convenient while disregarding and being unsaddled by the trials that come with being Black in America. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Is religion sacrosanct in this as well? If I am a Christian, can I not play an atheist character or a Jewish character? Religion, unlike race, is something you have control over. If you dislike being Christian or the nominal issues that come from it, you have the option to stop being Christian. You do not have the option to stop being Black. Being Jewish presents a dilemma since religion and ethnicity are tied together but that shouldn’t have much to do with the Black/white actor issue. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Gender? What about Mrs. Doubtfire? Should we take that off Netflix? Robin Williams is not playing a woman in Mrs Doubtfire. He is playing a cisgender straight man who disguises himself as a woman. > [@UltraVires](#): > > And why does it go to cartoon characters? Cleveland on Family Guy will get a new voice, done by a black guy instead of a white guy. But, here’s the thing. Cleveland is not real. I could see if a white guy played MLK and for whatever reason people didn’t like that (maybe) but not only a fictional character, but a cartoon character? Cleveland being animated doesn’t really change the issues of representation or a white person wearing the role of a Black person for convenience. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Should Hamilton be cancelled and/or replaced by all white actors? No, because the power disparity isn’t there. When a Black dude pretends to be Thomas Jefferson on stage, he’s still a Black dude at the end of the evening with all the burdens that entails in America. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/118 "2020-07-01T02:35:48Z")
If you can perform the task competently then being Asian, black, white, whatever is irrelevant. Viewing everything through the lens of identity politics, often for selfish reasons, is not productive. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/119 "2020-07-01T02:46:44Z")
Being empathetic and desiring to assist other people, however, is productive. Slate’s move seems to fall more under this category than “OMG identity politics”. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/120 "2020-07-01T09:01:23Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Mr. Willis is not, however, pretending to be black. So he can pretend to be anything in the world except black? > [@Jophiel](#): > > As I understand it, you have two core issues. The first being that minorities are underrepresented in “Hollywood” in general and a white person taking a Black role is only making that underrepresentation worse. The other being tied to the idea of white people “wearing” a race or culture for fun with the privilege of taking it off when they are done and reclaiming their white identity and life. Black people (for purposes of this thread) may take offense at the idea of actors playing Black for fun and profit when convenient while disregarding and being unsaddled by the trials that come with being Black in America. 1. Blacks are underrepresented in a lot of things and that is a separate issue. Should a white person not be a doctor because the white person is taking a job away from a black person? That seems silly. Plus it would run afoul of federal law. Yes, there are BFOQs and if I had a play where I portrayed MLK, I could probably say that hiring a black dude was a BFOQ, but a voice? A white guy can do a voice, but I am discriminating based upon race? 2. The plight of blacks in America is also a separate issue that is neither furthered nor hindered by a person pretending. > [@Jophiel](#): > > Religion, unlike race, is something you have control over. If you dislike being Christian or the nominal issues that come from it, you have the option to stop being Christian. You do not have the option to stop being Black. Being Jewish presents a dilemma since religion and ethnicity are tied together but that shouldn’t have much to do with the Black/white actor issue. We’ve discussed this in other threads, but no, if you sincerely believe that your religion is the one single true way to eternal life and any other way does not, you simply cannot just discard that like an old T-shirt. It’s pretty intrinsic. > [@Jophiel](#): > > Robin Williams is not playing a woman in Mrs Doubtfire. He is playing a cisgender straight man who disguises himself as a woman. The irony here is pretty thick. He is pretending to be a woman in the movie and pretending openly for the entertainment of the viewers. Isn’t that worse than pretending behind the scenes? > [@Jophiel](#): > > Cleveland being animated doesn’t really change the issues of representation or a white person wearing the role of a Black person for convenience. Sure it does. There is no representation. Cleveland is pixels in a computer. He is not black; he is an animation. He has no flesh, blood, or soul to be usurped. > [@Jophiel](#): > > No, because the power disparity isn’t there. When a Black dude pretends to be Thomas Jefferson on stage, he’s still a Black dude at the end of the evening with all the burdens that entails in America. I appreciate the entirety of your thoughtful reply, but this same old trope simply does not sell with most people and certainly not me. If we are ever going to get past these racial disparities, then it simply cannot be that if a white person does X it is wrong but if a black person does X it is okay because of racial injustice. That’s a surefire way to get poor whites angry about stuff and it is counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861/121 "2020-07-01T11:02:12Z")
That’s fine. Your rely is about what I expected but at least now you can’t say no one would answer your questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-people-voicing-non-white-characters/912861.md?page=7)