I don’t deny that, a different approach must be taken from inside the community as the current approach is not working.
Even Hitler’s?
Why would we celebrate Hitler’s suicide? Fucker escaped trial.
You think a show trial would have made a difference to the eventual outcome?
I’m not in favour of the death penalty, so wouldn’t celebrate that - but if evil people choose to top themselves, I feel that’s worth celebrating.
I know this is a joke, but no.
I believe that due process is due. He killed himself because he thought what was coming was worse. The key word is “escape”.
Another thought - you may think that Hitler not getting a trial is a bad thing, but would you call someone else (say, a Jew or a homosexual or a Rom) celebrating his suicide “just sick”?
I think he killed himself because he and his Reich were a failure and this was the last intentional act he could commit, not because he was afraid of a trial and execution. He wasn’t going to be tortured or anything like that, I don’t think (even though it was the Russians who would have captured him.) Spite, not cowardice, ultimately.
Yes, due process is great, I wouldn’t have been sorry if he had stood trial, you understand. But I don’t consider celebrating his demise “sick”, either. It’s a perfectly valid and acceptable response, IMO. It’s not like his guilt was in any doubt.
Let’s see…police stop far more black people than white people…more black people are popped for crimes than white people…
Who’d’a thunk it?
Welcome to the self-fulfilling prophecy.
Have I called you “just sick”? I would call you someone with whom I disagree on the subject, but I consider it’s perfectly fine that we disagree and even better than we can disagree in a civilized fashion.
That doesn’t depend on whether you’re part of one of the groups he would have liked to eliminate from the world; depending on how you look at that question either neither of us are or both of us are, but that’s because in the end his definition of “acceptable people” was damn fucking narrow, as it always is for bigots.
I also don’t tell people who are crying don’t cry or people who are angry don’t get mad. People are entitled to their own opinions and their own reactions, be they about Hitler, about suicide or about the colors of the moon.
…did you…did you just completely did a 180% on your position?
Yes: yes you have.
Which position do you want me to address: the one in this post, or the one in the last post? Which is the position you hold?
It wasn’t just possession that went down. The murder rate went down. How does that reconcile with your theory?
“On August 12th, 2013, Judge Scheindlin ruled that the police department had violated the Fourth Amendment by conducting unreasonable searches and the Fourteenth Amendment by systematically conducting stops and frisks in a racially discriminatory manner.”
You’ve literally described white privilege. You can’t claim it “doesn’t exist” when you’ve just come out and described it.
Blacks, simply because of the colour of their skin, were disproportionately affected by Stop and Frisk.
You claim that it applied to everybody. But you admit it affected black disproportionately. White people, in the same neighbourhood doing exactly the same thing were less likely (to a significant degree) to be stopped.
This is white privilege.
Do you get it now?
Yep. Its sad hundreds and thousands of innocent people were affected by a stupid policy.
“Permeates” is such an emotive word.
Here are some statistics for you.
“At the state level blacks are 6.5 times more likely as whites to be incarcerated for drug related crimes.”
Using your theory that crime is a problem that “permeates black communities”, can you explain why it is much less likely for white people to get incarcerated than black people for drug-related crimes?
So it isn’t about money. I already knew that. But I’m glad that with every post you get closer to proving that white privilege exists. Here’s yet another datapoint in its favour.
I’m not so sure.
Welcome to Great Debates. I’m making my case. Its over to you to make yours.
No I’m not doing this. If I did, then I would be doing your homework. You’ve made assertions. I’ve challenged your assertions. And your response is to make me look stuff up for you?
That isn’t how it works.
I suggest you stop insulting me and telling me to “return to reality.” I’m in reality. White privilege is not a “non-concept.” It is most certainly absolutely 100% a concept. Its literally a concept.
Are you talking about Stop and Frisk? Stop and Frisk was a fucking disaster. It was a measure that disproportionately targeted hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
Its an academic concept. You can disagree with it, but you can’t say it “doesn’t exist.” Because it actually does.
Do you actually know what people mean when they use the words “white privilege?” Because I don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about. Can you in your own words describe what you think it means?
No that isn’t what happens.
Do you know what this “reality” think you keep talking about is?
Its privilege. In your “reality” you don’t see a problem. People will patiently explain the issues to you but you dismiss them because the issues are not relevant to you. You don’t live their life so you don’t need to concern yourself with fixing anything.
I’m not the one who is “copping out.”
I disagree.
So if it “looks privileged” how do you know that it isn’t actually “privileged?” Whats the distinction?
You’ve presented no statistics. And anecdotal evidence via friendships don’t really have a lot of value in a great debate.
I am neither confused or emotional, and neither is anyone else in this thread.
You want me to prove that White Privilege is indeed a concept?
You can start here.
What point? That a concept isn’t really a concept? You don’t need statistics to debunk that.
The stereotype of black people as dangerous criminals dates back long, long before any crime statistics existed. It dates back to slavery, and was one of the prime justifications for slavery. It was never based on any facts at all. In fact, it was a reversal of facts – during slavery, a black woman was far, far more likely to be raped by a white man then a white woman was by a black man, yet the stereotype insisted (and society taught) that black men were dangerous to white women. This continued as justification for segregation and Jim Crow.
Economic discrimination continued well into the 20th and even 21st century – note my earlier posts citing studies showing that black people are less likely to get job interviews with identical qualifications than white people.
These problems originated in discrimination and oppression, not “within the black community”. The discrimination persists, even if it is significantly less than before.
No, but that’s how the person I initially replied to phrased it - that celebrating (it was implied any) suicide was “just sick”. I disagreed, and I gave the example of celebrating Hitler’s suicide.
I’d also - well, “celebrate” would be the wrong word, maybe “applaud”? - the suicide of anyone who was so racist they topped themselves just because America had a Black president, because that shit would be hi-larious.
I do of course have much more productive things to get to, so I will not waste my time as you did editing quotes inline.
Of course you’re “not going to do that” (check the statistics)
As for the reality issue, you implied that with your post, just returning the favor.
Get over yourself and your diluted beliefs and groupthink. There are many subjects in 'Academia' that do not make them a fact of life, speaking of white, Wikipedia isn't used as a reputable source in said Academia anyhow. It does not exist, period. It is a political buzz phrase used to draw attention and shift blame. As for whining, you can be as biased as you like while searching this page, and you will get a face full of the crime statistics proving my point, particularly crime trends and the focus on gang activities (a mostly minority issue) that draws law enforcement.
I did not do a 180 on my point, why don’t you re-read.
I am saying that Police follow trends as well as using proactive measures, that IS how law enforcement works, if a trend shows that one group is disproportionately effecting crime, they will profile that group. They follow criminal enterprise, the majority of street criminal enterprise/gangs in cities are minorities and majority black. The black community is not taking enough measures to stop this activity on their own, so the police can only react. What happens when they react? They bust criminals who happen to be black. Cut and Dry. That is the issue. As much as you are hoping for it, you can stop, I am not denying that police bust black people a lot, the fact is, most of the time they profile, they profile correctly. If a neighborhood is known for gun violence or shooting, they will profile more there and get drug arrests, it is just the way it is.
The collateral damage from it stems from the inclination of blacks to be involved in crime. You will not convince me that a police officer looking at 4 similarly dressed men (2 black and 2 white) will automatically go after the black person without reason. It does not happen as much as the media would have you believe. Another cultural aspect of it, the worship of “ghetto” and “rap culture” in the black community that promotes criminal activity, that needs to be taken care of from within, but so long as it exists, police will definitely look for the person with sagging pants, a cocked hat and in the case of Chicago, clothing colors, earring location, whether or not one pant leg is tucked under shoe tongue (marks of gang alliances/Folks Vs. Peoples nations). Many urban blacks dress this way, a way associated with crime. That is why they are singled out, and when they are, the police usually find something to bust them for. Maybe stop dressing and acting like a criminal and won’t be treated like one. There you have it.
Also, you never answered; If I was black and if I was stating the same facts here and now and why they occur, would you still call it “Privilege”? No, you wouldn’t, so don’t even try to deny it. That is also what makes it a loaded “concept” and rife with bias and blame.
Now find another way to spin my words around to justify your self delusions.
I am tired of explaining it, all of it is here. https://ucr.fbi.gov/. Don’t be so lazy, if you can use google, you can use the site, a veritable plethora of information.
Some extra information that you won’t read (please take note when looking at crime statistics, the neighborhoods and ethnicity/crime)
https://home.chicagopolice.org/community/gang-awareness/how-gangs-are-identified/ make sure you look at the crime data parts of the site as well
http://www.lapdonline.org/crime_mapping_and_compstat
Look up NYC or any other major urban center yourself, I am not spoon feeding you any more.
If you don’t understand by now, it is you that has the issue with intelligence and understanding.
I am not arguing against that point, I am [mostly] in agreement I am saying now that statistics are aplenty, they cannot be ignored.
I know some on here have it on the tip of their tongue to call me hateful or bigoted or what have you, but I am genuinely not. Just calling out observable fact and statistics with a little bit of opinion. It is an unfortunate state of affairs, but the police are not going to stop policing and because one group of people is doing better than the other, does not make the other privileged. A new approach when it comes to the black community, is needed. That is pretty much all I’ve been saying. There are deep-seated issues that need to be resolved from within, before outside help can be effective. Otherwise it is trying to squirt water on a building that is on fire from the inside.
50% of black people report that they have personally been mistreated by police. Another 15% report that they have not, but a family member has.
So that’s 65% of black people who say they have been mistreated by police, or have had a family member mistreated. Compare these numbers to 3% of white people who report having been mistreated by police.
Nowhere close to 50% of black people commit crimes, based on FBI statistics or any others. Not even close. Black people do not commit anywhere close to 16 times the amount of crime as white people, and yet they report being mistreated by police more than 16 times as often.
This is a massive disparity in mistreatment. Utterly massive. Half of black Americans – half – report that they personally have been mistreated by police.
That doesn’t come from crime statistics. It doesn’t come from behavior by black people, or anywhere within the black community. It doesn’t come from hip-hop culture (which has only been around for a few decades, while law enforcement mistreatment of black people has been around for as long as America has had law enforcement).
If you’re not arguing against that point, then you agree privilege exists, stemming from these past and current forms of discrimination. I’ve provided lots of studies and statistics – the above 50% of black people who personally report police mistreatment, the studies showing black people with identical qualifications are less likely to get job interviews, etc. – if you agree with these things, then you agree that white privilege exists. It doesn’t come from the black community or gang culture or anything like that – it all started long before any of that. It started with justifications for slavery, and ingrained itself in American society, affecting all of us, whether we realize it or not.
…are you talking to me?
If you aren’t going to bother quoting me how do we know who you are talking too?
I’ve quoted statistics. I’ve checked statistics. I’m making my case.
You aren’t making yours. No: of course I’m not going to do your homework for you. Do your own homework.
What did I imply?
“Get over yourself?”
Is that how you debate?
What is this “groupthink” thing?
You can’t deny the concept of white privilege exists. The mere existence of an article on Wikipedia (no matter how “reputable” that is in academia") shows that it exists.
It does exist, period.
And here you are, conceding it exists.
What exactly is your point, and how does a face full of crime statistics prove your point?
I know what you said. You said “The problems in their community need to be addressed from within before the crime rate falls, and police will over time stop profiling them. This is not difficult to understand.”
The police stopped profiling them. Then the crime rate fell. That is the opposite of what you claimed would happen. When I pointed this out, you claimed that falling crime rates (for certain crimes) as a result of stopping profiling and making fewer arrests was to be expected.
So which position do you hold?
But innocent black people aren’t criminals.
But you are perfectly happy for innocent black people to be disproportionately stopped and frisked simply because of the colour of their skin.
You are perfectly happy for white people to be disproportionately not stopped and frisked because of the colour of the skin.
Privilege in a nutshell.
This is a ridiculous assertion. Are the white community responsible for taking measures to stop white crime? How does that work exactly?
There are plenty of other options.
That isn’t what stop and frisk showed.
But they didn’t "profile correctly."6% of stops resulted in arrests. 2% resulted in the recovery of weapons. That is simply a pathetic “correct profiling rate.” It didn’t work. It was unconstitutional.
They weren’t disproportionately targeting people in the neighborhood. They were disproportionately targeting black people.
The overwhelming majority (and we are talking about over half a million stops a year in some cases) of stop and frisks didn’t result in arrest, they didn’t result in confiscations. To characterize those stops as “collateral damage” is laughable.
Why is it, do you think, that US District Court Judge Shira Scheindlin ruled the practice of stop and frisk unconstitutional?
So are you admitting that it happens?
Aha.
So the solution is to turn black people white.
Got it.
No privilege going on here!
If you associate the way people dress with crime then the problem isn’t with “urban blacks.” I’m pretty sure the problem is you.
Wow.
It really is just getting worse and worse.
The police aren’t busting black people because they are committing crime.
Its because they dress like criminals. So the police will find something to bust them for.
You do realize that this is bad right?
Lets forget privilege just for a minute. Do you really think its a good thing that police will find something to “bust” people for because of the clothes that they wear and the colour of their skin?
You never asked me this question, and now that you have asked me this question, I’m fully prepared to answer it, but I don’t have a clue as to what you are saying. Would you care to rephrase?
My. Aren’t you presumptuous. Please don’t assume how I’m going to answer questions that you never asked.
I’m not spinning your words. And I have no delusions.
You haven’t explained anything. And don’t accuse me of being lazy.
You’ve provided a link to the FBI. What exactly is it you want me to do with that link?
What point are you trying to argue? Why do you want me to look at these links?
I’ve cited plenty of cites about NYC, and about when the NYC police stopped doing what you suggested they do, the crime rate came down.
If you want to insult me with have an entire forum here where you are able to do so. But I respectfully ask that you stop insulting me here.
Banquet Bear My apologies, I just got frustrated.
No, I do not want blacks to turn white, nor take away cultural aspects, please don’t extrapolate things. I am simply stating that by reading the statistics, one can infer that a problem exists in the black community that brings upon heavier crime rates, please check statistics on gangs. If those issues are eliminated from within, this profiling from police will stop or at the very least, lessen over time. There is not one other racial group in this country that has this situation, I am not going to be led to believe it is from a privilege conspiracy or systematic racism.
I don’t know how else to explain this to anyone, so I am done here.
Again, my apologies Banquet Bear for getting incendiary, it was purely out of frustration. I am conveying my ideas on the issue and thinking “How are they not understanding this!?” and I am sure you feel the same way of myself.
Cheers!
Yes.
I think celebrating death and being happy someone killed himself is sick. It’s sadistic and nasty. Relief at the death of a monster like Hitler, sure, but celebrating it? Frankly, I don’t want that sort of person in my life.
^ and that.
Yes.
I say that as someone who’s father’s family lost everyone in Europe to Hitler, as someone who would have been on a cattle car to a death camp if I had been there, as a member of one of those groups you named.
No, it would be sad and tragic that hate and bigotry took another life.
There are bigots that have reformed and become non-bigots. I find that preferable to dying as a bigot.
I just don’t see anything happy about death, or anything to celebrate, and I am creeped out and frightened by people who delight and celebrate in the death of another.