White Substance In Drain Pipe

Factual Questions
41

I’m going to assume that you have checked your meter to make sure that a line hasn’t developed a pinhole in it, somewhere. If you haven’t, it might be a good idea to do that.
Most meters have a little ‘pointer’ (on the ones here in Houston, it is a small red triangle) that will turn if there’s any water at all flowing thru the meter. Even if a toilet has an almost imperceptible leak, the pointer will move (albeit, very slowly).

If it’s moving (after you’ve made sure that it isn’t a toilet valve leaking, or a faucet dripping) then you’ve got a hole in a water line, somewhere. :frowning:

I have to concur with Joey P, on all that he has posted. (IMHO, he seems very knowledgeable on the subject.) :cool:

I certainly wish you luck on solving your problems. :slight_smile:

And with a minimum amount of digging.

42

If your house was built in 1955 it is quite possible that it originally had a septic system but was later connected to the city sewer. White sludge in sewer pipes is usually fats and oils that had lye used on them to open up the drain. It is a sort of soap It collects and can be quite nasty at times.

43

That’s sort of what I’m thinking. He’s lucky that his water meter is by the street and I’m guessing the main comes in right in the area. What he’s going to want to do is shut off the water where it enters the house, check the meter and then check it again a few hours later (or the next morning) before turning the water back on. That’ll eliminate any inside issues and only show if there’s a leak somewhere between the meter and the shutoff valve.

44

+1 :cool:

45

I did check the water valve the other day and it is slowly moving; I don’t believe there is a leak in the house, nor are there dripping faucets. I did not, however, shut off the water main to the house and then check the meter.

The problem, of course, is that if the leak is outside the house, there’s at least $40,000 of retaining wall between the house and the water meter, and I’m not sure how the location of the leak could be pinpointed to a particular section. As above, the house is probably at least 40 feet ABOVE the water main and the pipe goes under the driveway and multiple massive mortar-reinforced retaining walls. Perhaps locating it can be done - as I said, I’m not knowledgeable at all about this kind of stuff.

I will have to turn off the water main at some convenient time and see what I can find out, anyway - if there truly is a leak and it’s inside the house, that could be more easily discovered and remedied (I would think).

46

I have some more thoughts on the subject, but I have a meeting to attend. I’ll post them later tonight. (Joey P might beat me to it, though. ;))

47

If it was moving fast enough that you could actually see it moving, then shut off the water where it enters the house. That’ll take any leaks inside the house out of the equation. Then go look at the meter. Still moving…you gotta leak outside.

Is the shutoff (in your house) near this area that you’ve been working on (on the outside)? In other words, is it likely that the main runs nearby this pipe with the little quarter sized hole in it (let’s say, within about 30 feet or so, left to right). I’m going to take a WAG and say it comes into your house very close to that area and it has a very small leak and from time to time some water trickles into it, hits the blockage and finds it’s way onto the sidewalk.

The other most likely issue would be a sump pump that’s coming on and draining to an unknown location (that you’ve just never really thought about). Do you have a sump pump? Has it been running?

48

Also worth noting that, again, the pipe doesn’t **consistently **leak - it’ll dry up and then I’ll look out and it’s wet again, and then dry up, and so on. Maybe a pinpoint leak could oscillate like that, maybe not.

Plus, with at least one perforation in it, it doesn’t make sense that it would be connected to the water main at all - I would think that water would come rushing out of the quarter-sized hole, but maybe my thinking is affected by Hollywood movies in which someone punctures a hole in a pipe and water comes out like a geyser.

I also noticed, after spending a fair amount of time removing the white substance, that it really doesn’t seem to DRAIN at all. I can fill it with the hose (which takes virtually no time at all), walk away, come back 15 minutes later and it’s still full to the top of the hole - in other words, no water has really left the pipe or the amount that HAS left is imperceptible. In other words, it doesn’t appear to drain slowly so much as not drain at all.

Which of course (to me) makes absolutely no sense.

I’m content to let it leak onto the sidewalk when it wants to, like a petulant child, but not if it’s potentially indicative of a serious problem. If it’s a French drain or other exterior drain that just doesn’t drain properly or if water used by a neighbor (watering lawns, whatever), well, I just don’t know that it’s worth fixing.

It has been leaking across the sidewalk every time it rains - I suspected it was just the path water was taking naturally but now I assume it to be originating from the pipe. That’s been happening since before we bought the house (a couple years).

(Edited to add - I now see how a water main leak could still get water into this pipe, thanks to Joey’s WAG.)

49

Might sound silly, but I don’t know where the water shutoff IS in the house. Probably an important thing to know. I do suspect based on the location of the water meter and common sense, that the water main is near the pipe in question.

We do have a sump pump but it’s bone dry - I checked it yesterday.

50

Okay, that was pretty easy - finding the water main. Located in the crawlspace near the furnace. Turned it off. Faucet ran for a bit, then no water. Do I need to leave it off for a period of time before I should expect/hope the water meter to stop moving?

I did, after I turned it off, check the meter and the red triangle was still slowly rotating, but I had JUST turned it off. I’m on my way out and had to turn it back on, but at least now I can check tomorrow when it’s more convenient.

51

I could see that happening with a small leak. It’ll emanate out in all directions. Right now some of it trickles to the sidewalk and empties that pocket. While that’s drying up, maybe some of it heads towards the yard. I wouldn’t try to make sense of it, not just yet anyways. The leaking water main is the best working theory we have right now.

Did you ever see water actually come out of that hole? I’m wondering if the water main and the blocked up retaining wall drain are two separate issues that you just happened to find at the same time.
Actually, I take that back, I’m not sure where I was going with that. I mean, the water has to go somewhere, if the drain wasn’t clogged, the water would have made it’s way into the drain and out to the street, you never would have known about it.

That run of the retaining wall drain is so short and moves such a small amount of water, I (IMHO) don’t see an issue with leaving it alone. I wouldn’t be worried about it draining onto the sidewalk. However, if you do end up digging up the garden, I’d rip it out and replace it with regular plastic drain tile and make an attempt to connect it to the rest of the system…after verifying that the rest of the system flows freely and isn’t also full of that white stuff. If it is, I would just let that empty onto the sidewalk, but maybe set it up so that if you ever do fix the rest of the system, it can be easily reconnected. Hard to say what to do until you start doing it.

Right away. Maybe a half second for any internal water hammering between the meter and the shutoff to stop.

52

(bolding mine)

I concur with Joey P. After you’ve turned off the valve that supplies water to the house (the valve between the meter and the house), the indicator on the water meter should stop, almost instantly. No more than 10 seconds (if even, that long).

Unless, the water is coming from a pinhole leak in the line that supplies water to the house. In which case the hole will inevitably become larger, and you’ll be paying for wasted water. :eek:
If the indicator continues to turn, after you have shut off the valve at the house, then you most definitely have a leak in your water main, between the meter and the valve. Not good. :frowning:
Finding and fixing that (if indeed, you do have a leak in that line), IMHO, should be your first priority.
Even a small pinhole can add up to a significant increase in your water bill, over time.
Not to mention the fact, that the water from the leak can constantly wash dirt down into the drain.

Which might be the problem with the drain, to start with.

ETA You need to know for sure that the valve at the house, is working properly, otherwise the indicator at the meter will give you a false indication of a leak in the line.

53

Missed the ‘edit’ window…
ETA You need to know for sure that the main supply valve at the house, is working properly, otherwise the indicator at the meter will give you a false indication of a leak in the line.
You can do this by leaving a cold water faucet inside the house (on the top most floor) open, and looking for water dripping from it, after you have shut off the house supply valve, while leaving the meter valve open.
If the house supply valve is leaking very slowly, it may take a while for this to happen. In order to insure that you do not inadverdantly have a ‘siphon effect’, you can open a lower faucet and let a little water drain out, to prevent this.
Close that lower faucet, and then watch the upper/higher faucet and see if it starts to drip. If it does, then your main supply valve to your house could be leaking.

54

After turning off the main valve into the house, the water meter continues to indicate there’s water usage. I left a faucet on in the house for 5 minutes or so and it continued to drip very quickly - almost a steady stream of water. All the faucets are on the same level - the house is a single-level home - so I couldn’t simultaneously open a lower-level faucet. Maybe that means the main valve doesn’t close properly, but there’s still the issue that when all the faucets in the house are off, the water meter still shows water being used.

I also used a straw and my finger and removed water from the concrete pipe; it is definitely refilling with water from some source - maybe from a perforation further up the concrete pipe, closer to the (hypothetical) leak. (Again, no rain recently, although the ground is still damp from where I soaked it to do some prior testing, so the continued buildup of water COULD be from the drying of that soil.)

In addition, as this thread has continued, it seems relevant (perhaps) that I removed a large shrub from near the house a few weeks ago, including the shrub’s extensive root system. While I certainly didn’t SEE the main water line, it’s not unreasonable that it is located close to the root system and I may have jostled it, causing the leak. Unfortunately, I don’t know if the leaking water on the sidewalk started at that time, before then, or after - I just don’t recall (plus it was still the rainy season here in Portland, so it would’ve been harder to note anyway).

If there’s a silver lining, it’s that I’ve already dug a substantial hole (to remove the shrub). I’ve since filled it, but it’s all loose soil and would be easy to dig up again.

So I’m wondering if that’s not the next route - to do some digging and see if I can locate either:

  • the actual water main (based on where it comes up into the crawlspace and the location of the water meter, assuming a straight line between the two)

  • uncharacteristically damp soil.

If that seems a reasonable approach, do I need to have the city shut off water to the house prior to even exploratory digging?

Is there some way to determine the “exact” (to a reasonable degree) location of the water line?

Anything else I should check before digging, any other (easier) avenues?

55

There should be a valve on ‘your’ side of the meter, very close to the meter itself.
It may not look like a normal valve, (ie: the type with a round handle, like the ones on your hose bibs around the outside of your house) it might just look like a straight solid bar on top of the valve.
If it lines up with the pipe, then the water is on. If it is perpendicular to the pipe, then the water is off. You can use a large 12" Crescent wrench or a pipe wrench to turn it, if there is sufficient room.
If there’s not enough room to get a wrench in there, you can purchase a T-handled ‘water key’ from any Home Depot or Lowe’s.
And, no there isn’t any reason to call the city, at least none that I can think of.
IMHO, the spot where you dug/pulled up the shrub would be a logical place to start looking. I would also leave the water on while you dig around/probe for the pipe. It might make it easier to locate the leak.
Is your house a ‘pier and beam’ type (up on blocks), or does it sit directly on a concrete slab?
If your house sits up on blocks and there is a crawl space, I would check under the house and see if you can spot a wet or damp spot anywhere.

It would have been wonderful if you lived closer to me, I’ve got one of these http://www.schonstedt.com/finduxo/METMAG09.pdf that are made exactly for the purpose of finding metal pipes underground.
The old fashioned method is to use a solid metal rod 4’-5’ long. (A smooth metal rod approx. 3/8"-1/2" in diameter works quite well. If you can’t find a smooth rod, a piece of ‘rebar’ will work also, it’s just harder to push in and out of the ground.) It helps if the end that you are going to be poking into the ground is ‘rounded’, (but not, ‘sharp’) as opposed to simply flat, on the end. Bend about 6"-8" of the other end 90 degrees, to give yourself a ‘handle’ with which to push and pull on. By pushing and pulling on the rod, when/if you make contact with the pipe, you will definitely be able to tell.

56

Okay, so I dug around and found, well, nothing notable.

I dug (about 2 feet down) behind the retaining wall the concrete pipe runs parallel to/underneath and found another section of the pipe a couple feet up from the exposed portion. However, all the dirt everywhere (except IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the lower portion of pipe) is dry. No sign of water running through the soil anywhere at all.

Unfortunately, I can’t dig all the way around the pipe because the retaining wall (stone/mortar) is in the way. However, I’m reasonably sure the water is not coming from the exterior of the pipe other than any water that may be leaking out of the concrete pipe itself (through small cracks or perforations). I just don’t see any abundant sign of water that I would think would be present with a main line leak.

**Edited to Add: **At this point, I feel like filling everything back in and just closely monitoring the situation. I can live with water on the sidewalk (especially since it’s Portland so the sidewalks are usually wet anyway). If the water flow gets noticeably worse (or better), I believe I’d know it. Is that a BAD idea, just to wait and monitor the situation?

57

Hmmm… Well, in an earlier post you wrote that “when all the faucets in the house are off, the water meter still shows water being used.” That means that water has to be leaking somewhere. Since you can see that your faucets aren’t leaking, the next possible source for water usage would be the toilets.
Those are easily checked by putting a few drops of food coloring into the toilet tank, if the water in the bowl changes color then you might need to replace the flapper and valve.
Once you’ve eliminated all of those possibile sources of a leak, you’re going to have to see about fixing the house supply valve. Once you’ve got that fixed, you’ll be able to tell if the leak is before or after that valve.
As I already posted, I would start checking the water line where you dug up the shrub.

ETA Well, IMHO, it’s a bad idea for the simple fact that you’re paying a higher water bill, than need be. And as I posted earlier, the leak will eventually get worse. It might take quite a bit of time before it gets noticeably worse, but it will happen.

58

You can do this to see how much water is leaking. After making sure that none of your faucets or toilets are leaking, before you go to bed tonight, go out and make note of the reading on your meter. Check it again in the morning, and do the math.
If it’s not a terribly large amount, then by all means, just keep a close eye on the situation, and see if it gets worse. Say, check it once a week or so.

Not trying to be ‘snarky’, but if you can live with it, I certainly can. :wink:

59

Thanks for all the suggestions! I’ve thrown in the towel and am having somebody come and look at it tomorrow. It’s just taken up a lot of my time and energy that I don’t have. I try to be a DIY-er, but sometimes it’s easier to plug a hole with dollar bills.

Nevertheless, I will post back to this thread to let you know the final resolution of the problem(s).

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions.

60

Not a problem.
Sorry that we/I couldn’t have been more helpful. :frowning:

I know exactly how you feel. Yes, “sometimes it’s easier to plug a hole with dollar bills.”
I’ve been a commercial carpenter and General Contractor for 30+ years, and there is very seldom a home problem that I can’t deal with. But there are times when it is better to call in a ‘specialist’.
(And plumbing work, is one of those tasks that I’ve found can be absolutely exasperating, at times. :mad: )
You’ll probably find that a professional plumber will (hopefully) ascertain the problem and be able to remedy it way easier/faster, than you or I. They’ve got a lot of little trade specific ‘tricks’ that you and I wouldn’t have even thought of. (Not to mention, the proper tools and equipment to do the job right.) :wink:

Yes, please report back and let us know what the problem(s) was (were).